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Racism in Rugby - Event Date: 21 Oct 2022

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    Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 07:53
This is a topic I really got annoyed with when Luther Burrell said "Racism is rife in Rugby Union"
I've been manager of Junior teams at Sandal for many years and we have had many different ethnic  young lads play for us .Probably against Huddersfield when Burrell was playing there. 
But there was never in probably my 10 years tenure any racism whatsoever 
My son played 12 years in 1st team and never any racism 
Why would he say that  Rugby Union is racis t
 


Edited by tulip - 21 Oct 2022 at 08:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 08:39
Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

This is a topic I really got annoyed with when Luther Burrell said "Racism is rife in Rugby Union"
I've been manager of Junior teams at Sandal for many years and we have had many different ethnic  young lads play for us .Probably against Huddersfield when Burrell was playing there. 
But there was never in probably my 10 years tenure any racism whatsoever 
My son played 12 years in 1st team and never any racism 
Why would he say that  Rugby Union is racis t
 

He has obviously experienced it that's why he is saying it exists. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 09:07
There's racism in every walk of life. It's insidious, and ingrained, to the extent that often offenders don't even realise. To think it doesn't exist in RU would be naive in the extreme.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 09:46
I have certainly witnessed racism from supporters, both of my own club (Coventry), and of their opponents. It has varied between one-off comments shouted at players, to a group of visiting supporters making monkey hootimg noises at a player whenever he came near their touchline. I have reported them and in at least two cases I know they were investigated and action taken.
It seems more prevalent with certain clubs, and there are many where I have nrvet seen it, but to say it does not exist is denying what is clearly there.
I can also remember being at a match where one incident between players where after an unpleasant assault on pitch which resulted in police involvement two players made 'mistaken' witness statements implicating an innocent coloured player - the only one in their opponents team. Police charges against him were dropped when the guilty party owned up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 11:59
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

This is a topic I really got annoyed with when Luther Burrell said "Racism is rife in Rugby Union"
I've been manager of Junior teams at Sandal for many years and we have had many different ethnic  young lads play for us .Probably against Huddersfield when Burrell was playing there. 
But there was never in probably my 10 years tenure any racism whatsoever 
My son played 12 years in 1st team and never any racism 
Why would he say that  Rugby Union is racis t
 

He has obviously experienced it that's why he is saying it exists. 

Well we shall see what the RFU come out with having interviewed 100 players 
I can see it perhaps coming from touch line but not from fellow players. 
I’m called “tulip” at club by various people.Thick useless little  Irish pill ock. It’s banter 
I’m not offended They are my mates


Edited by tulip - 21 Oct 2022 at 12:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 12:48
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

This is a topic I really got annoyed with when Luther Burrell said "Racism is rife in Rugby Union"
I've been manager of Junior teams at Sandal for many years and we have had many different ethnic  young lads play for us .Probably against Huddersfield when Burrell was playing there. 
But there was never in probably my 10 years tenure any racism whatsoever 
My son played 12 years in 1st team and never any racism 
Why would he say that  Rugby Union is racis t
 

He has obviously experienced it that's why he is saying it exists. 


I agree Richard but this is one man's experience. Are we all guilty, no. Is this any reason for a major enquiry, no.

I watch our MJ section on a Sunday morning , which regularly involves a couple of hundred players, parents and coaches and, I have never witnessed any gathering of that size that is more inclusive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 12:51
The inquiry may well find that there are only isolated pockets.
But, we would still need to deal with those.
I think the worst we can do is not to look.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 13:27
Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

This is a topic I really got annoyed with when Luther Burrell said "Racism is rife in Rugby Union"
I've been manager of Junior teams at Sandal for many years and we have had many different ethnic  young lads play for us .Probably against Huddersfield when Burrell was playing there. 
But there was never in probably my 10 years tenure any racism whatsoever 
My son played 12 years in 1st team and never any racism 
Why would he say that  Rugby Union is racis t
 

He has obviously experienced it that's why he is saying it exists. 

Well we shall see what the RFU come out with having interviewed 100 players 
I can see it perhaps coming from touch line but not from fellow players. 
I’m called “tulip” at club by various people.Thick useless little  Irish pill ock. It’s banter 
I’m not offended They are my mates

What you are prepared to accept as 'banter' from your mates is your concern but to try and equate it to unwanted cloudberry language /behaviour received by others is simply wrong. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 13:31
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

This is a topic I really got annoyed with when Luther Burrell said "Racism is rife in Rugby Union"
I've been manager of Junior teams at Sandal for many years and we have had many different ethnic  young lads play for us .Probably against Huddersfield when Burrell was playing there. 
But there was never in probably my 10 years tenure any racism whatsoever 
My son played 12 years in 1st team and never any racism 
Why would he say that  Rugby Union is racis t
 

He has obviously experienced it that's why he is saying it exists. 


I agree Richard but this is one man's experience. Are we all guilty, no. Is this any reason for a major enquiry, no.

I watch our MJ section on a Sunday morning , which regularly involves a couple of hundred players, parents and coaches and, I have never witnessed any gathering of that size that is more inclusive.

I disagree. At what level should we have an enquiry then? What is the acceptable number of people racially abused before we do something about it? The answer is one and that is one too many.

Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't take away the fact it happens. Just be lucky it hasn't happened to you but have empathy with those who have been abused and the affect it has on them. 

Racism is simply unacceptable and I can't believe I am having to make that point. 


Edited by Richard Lowther - 21 Oct 2022 at 13:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 13:54
The point I  and Sid were trying to make Richard was that Burrell's accusation that Racism is rife in rugby union is wrong. He probably has been called something and I hope he names names. Put up or shut up 
Have I been racially abused by being called an Irish Pilloc k No friendly banter among mates
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 14:01
Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

The point I  and Sid were trying to make Richard was that Burrell's accusation that Racism is rife in rugby union is wrong. He probably has been called something and I hope he names names. Put up or shut up 
Have I been racially abused by being called an Irish Pilloc k No friendly banter among mates

You totally miss the point. 

Yours and Sid's insistence that there is no racism is not evidence that it doesn't exist. That is why there is an enquiry to determine the scale of such unacceptable behaviour. 

How did you feel when you were abused? Was it acceptable, did it make you feel  uncomfortable, were you in fear of violence etc. 
Because that is what it does to people and no one should be condoning such behaviour. 


Edited by Richard Lowther - 21 Oct 2022 at 14:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 14:09
I haven't missed the point Richard. I have said that in my experience I have not experienced racism in rugby and that I didn't think it was RIFE 
I'm sure it has happened and it needs looking into. But I don't think it is rife


Edited by tulip - 21 Oct 2022 at 14:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 14:13
Your experience is irrelevant.

The experience of a player who has been racially abused is not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 14:23
Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

I haven't missed the point Richard. I have said that in my experience I have not experienced racism in rugby and that I didn't think it was RIFE 
I'm sure it has happened and it needs looking into. But I don't think it is rife

You have missed the point. The enquiry will determine if it is or isn't rife and will do so based more than on your observations.




Edited by Richard Lowther - 21 Oct 2022 at 14:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 14:26
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

[QUOTE=tulip]I haven't missed the point Richard. I have said that in my experience I have not experienced racism in rugby and that I didn't think it was RIFE 
I'm sure it has happened and it needs looking into. But I don't think it is rife

You have missed the point. The enquiry will determine if it is or isn't rife and will do so based more than on your observations.


I totally agree All I was trying to do was find other opions which Sid expressed

Edited by tulip - 21 Oct 2022 at 14:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 14:55
Reading this thread it's interesting how some posters switch between taking individual experiences as representative of rugby as a whole and then doing the opposite when it suits their argument.

Hopefully the enquiry will provide more consistent and logical analysis.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 15:05
I do not accept that it is rife in Rugby. Unless he is referring to crowds. I have played and been involved in Rugby for 42 years having started playing aged 12 at an inner London comprehensive on the the ironically named White City estate' Shepherds Bush. I can not recall one incident at school. We have a social media group and I will ask if anyone experienced racism in Rugby. I am sure that there were incidents but not directly associated with Rugby.
In my experience at school , schoolboy County Rugby, County colts divisional and England colts I never heard of or witnessed any form of racism. 
In adult Rugby I had only two clubs , Hammersmith & Fulham ( formed by my school mates , Bhomdat Marajah, Roy Evans, Terry Alleyne , Andrew Whiteman all who are not white ! These  guys formed a thriving Rugby club and are all still heavily involved in the running of that club.
My second club , Ealing had at one time 11 adult teams and were the most diverse mix of people from all backgrounds and skin colour. No one.......No one cared what colour your skin was, where you came from , what school you went to. 
I have coached youth Rugby for 22 years and qualified by the RFU to be a divisional selector . I have never witnessed any racism. My conclusion is it is not rife but I does happen and is unacceptable .
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 15:07
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Reading this thread it's interesting how some posters switch between taking individual experiences as representative of rugby as a whole and then doing the opposite when it suits their argument.

Hopefully the enquiry will provide more consistent and logical analysis.

I hope you are right. I thought this forum was about expressing views. I will go back to reading the predictions 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 16:04
It’s all about the terms, because times have changed. Language used when I was younger is no longer acceptable you only need to look at TV to see the changing issues, Benny Hill, Steptoe, Alf Garnet all massive audience pullers back in the day but now derided on the altar of political correctness. Is there racism in rugby definitely how bad is it who knows and we probably never will can another quango determine it definitely not as even now most people do not realise what they say in banter another sees it as offensive
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 16:05
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

The point I  and Sid were trying to make Richard was that Burrell's accusation that Racism is rife in rugby union is wrong. He probably has been called something and I hope he names names. Put up or shut up 
Have I been racially abused by being called an Irish Pilloc k No friendly banter among mates

You totally miss the point. 

Yours and Sid's insistence that there is no racism is not evidence that it doesn't exist. That is why there is an enquiry to determine the scale of such unacceptable behaviour. 

How did you feel when you were abused? Was it acceptable, did it make you feel  uncomfortable, were you in fear of violence etc. 
Because that is what it does to people and no one should be condoning such behaviour. 

I never insisted that there is no racism in rugby and I never said I had not witnessed racism in rugby.
What I was trying to say is that my Club and, I would assume many Clubs nationally, are doing a very good job at stamping out racism at its roots. We do not need the RFU, or anyone else, telling us how we should behave or how we should deal with incidents of racism. 
I was also trying to get over that we do not need an expensive enquiry to tell us what we already know i.e. the further you look back the more examples of racism you will find. Times, and feelings of what is morally acceptable, have changed. That's why 'Love thy Neighbour' isn't shown on TV today.
Would we be having this enquiry if some unknown Club 3rd team player had highlighted the issue. No.
We are moving on and the Clubs are taking the lead on this.
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