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Proposed " Class Action" |
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Steve@Mose 
World Cup Winner 
Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2744 |
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 Posted: 01 Sep 2022 at 18:51 |
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Essex University pioneers grassroots rugby study
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Camquin
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Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Online Points: 11121 |
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Posted: 01 Sep 2022 at 21:06 |
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I believe it is Colchester
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Steve@Mose
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Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2744 |
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Posted: 05 Oct 2022 at 13:38 |
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Steve Thompson: Rugby World Cup winner describes impact of dementia
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Camquin
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Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Online Points: 11121 |
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Posted: 05 Oct 2022 at 14:25 |
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But "you've have got to take the hit." There is no hit, there never was a hit, a hit is illegal. Any front row that said that should have been instantly yellow carded, as it means were deliberately cheating. But the referees went along with it, with the backing of the IRB and the unions. The IRB, the unions, the referees and especially the coaches have got dirty hands. I know it is not just front rows that have had problems, but they are the majority.
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Halliford
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Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4146 |
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Posted: 05 Oct 2022 at 18:29 |
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We nee d to tone down the language. It’s not a hit, it’s a tackle or an engagement(at a scrum). Let’s stop cheering the dramatictackle which will have injured one of those involved, let’s cheer the pass, the half break and the great run.
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Steve@Mose
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Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2744 |
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Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 09:19 |
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Brain injury legal action: Former amateur rugby union players state case for claim
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Steve@Mose
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Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2744 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 09:00 |
Brain injury claims against governing bodies may exceed £300m
Edited by Steve@Mose - 28 Mar 2023 at 09:25 |
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Sid James
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Joined: 28 Jun 2013 Location: East Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1643 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 12:53 |
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This is a tragic tale. Those looking at needing care in the coming years do have my utmost sympathy but, I would like to understand more on why the players concerned feel that the Governing Bodies are in some way responsible for their condition and, why they feel that the Governing Bodies should shoulder the cost of their care.
Will this 'class action' start with early onset dementia cases and gradually work its way down to the thousands of ex-players who now struggle with daily tasks due to neck, shoulder, hip or knee injuries? I have genuine fears for the future of our game should Governing Bodies be found to be responsible for conditions or injuries sustained by players who made the personal choice/decision to play Rugby and, in some cases, chose to make a career out of playing Rugby.
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All Knwoing All Seeing
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tigerburnie
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 3630 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 13:09 |
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The work place has to be a safe place to be whether a factory, building site, coal mine or sports field. The law on health and safety states that "as far as is reasonably practicable", the work place should be a safe place to work, There is also some burden on employees to follow safe practises et.
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billesleyexile
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Joined: 20 Jun 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1855 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 13:34 |
Which is the killer (no pun intended) - as it also was for the tobacco industry. Essentially, I think two things are probably true as starting points: - at some time in the past of professional rugby (or the last years of amateur) no one really knew what they were doing in terms of the long-term impacts. - while the long term impacts are still contested by some, we're not in the same state of complete ignorance now. Consequently is going to come down to, as it did with tobacco, who knew what when, and how much was what was known catered for after that point. Basically, what was (or God help us/forbid *is*) the lag between knowledge and practice, and who are the unions, or even individual clubs, therefore on the hook for? To Sid's point about choice, it does need to be informed choice. So I think the issue will be, given that they can't as individual players possibly have known all the risks given that the risks are only more recently emerging - e.g. any posited link between contact sport and dementia, or MND - was there a time when the sport either knew or *ought to have known* more than those players, and could they have made it clearer to those players? If so, then the players are probably correct that their choice wasn't an informed choice. It's a complete can of worms.
Edited by billesleyexile - 28 Mar 2023 at 13:37 |
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keep the faith
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Big Eddie
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Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5026 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 14:02 |
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I have sympathy with Sid's view, however there are factors which the governing bodies are responsible for.
As an example I played my senior rugby in the 70's and 80's when rucking was still allowed and collisions at the breakdown were nowhere near as impactful or violent as they are today.
I doubt whether I would have wanted to play today's game.....I may have concluded that certain aspects (especially the breakdown) were just too dangerous. |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Richard Lowther
Coaching staff
Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6528 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 14:58 |
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I have total sympathy with the players and their families.
There are a number of points to consider. A governing body has a duty of care to its players. The crux of any legal case is when did the RFU etc know of the potential for injury and what did it do about it. If the dangers were known but nothing was done about it then the legal cases stand a good of winning but on the other hand if the dangers were not known and therefore nothing was done because of this, then it reduces the chance of a succesful claim. For me of us, this is a 'new injury' and not known to us when we started to play - unlike, for example the chances of a broken leg. Players accept a certain chance of injuries - would they have played if they knew head injuries could cause dementia? Secondly is there a difference between playing as a social amateur (pre 1995) and a semi-pro/professional player post 1995 (talking just Rugby Union here). For the latter the employer has a duty of care in addition to the governining body; but for the former who other than the RFU etc had a duty of care? Does that duty of care fall upon the coaching or medical staff who may have insisted a concussed player get back into action. How far down the 'chain' does the responsibility/duty of care lie? Does the player share any responsibility - for example knowingly playing on when injured? Thirdly, how do you separate when the damage was done - was it the first injury in a club game as a amateur, or a third knock playing for your club as a professional or a concussion whilst on international appearance. How easy is it to understand who is responsible?
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Sid James
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Joined: 28 Jun 2013 Location: East Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1643 |
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Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 22:51 |
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Is the 'duty of care' not covered by the laws if the game? Head high tackling has always been an offence so, are the match officials partly responsible and, the Clubs for not providing proper medical care in previous years? We see evolution and learning in everything over the years so, can we really point to the past and use today's knowledge to hold it responsible? How do you determine which hit caused the problem? How can anyone say with certainty that contact during the game caused the condition? How many players have put their head in a scrum, week after week for years, and have no issues? I would say hundreds of thousands. Younger rugby players generally go through a phase of playing hard both on and off the field so, in later years can players honestly say that they have never done anything off the field that may have contributed to their condition? Our game us under serious threat here. Player safety is without doubt important but our game is not our game if you do not accept the contact and the risks involved.
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All Knwoing All Seeing
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Mountain Man
First XV regular 
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Location: In the hills Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Posted: 29 Mar 2023 at 09:13 |
Very well argued Sid, I agree.  Edited by Mountain Man - 29 Mar 2023 at 09:15 |
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WESTCOMBE RANGER
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Westcombe Park Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2299 |
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Posted: 29 Mar 2023 at 10:20 |
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This is a repeat of a post I made back in July last year.
Quote I suffered a concussion during a game in the early nineties. Didn't have a clue at the time how it happened but I was flat out for about a minute ( so I was told) and was helped off the pitch because I couldn't walk. At that time there had been a guideline issued to all clubs by the RFU which specifically stated that anyone who had been concussed should not be considered for selection for the next 2 weeks. I availed myself of this opportunity to rest which at the time was greeted with mixed views, which I don't think need explaining, . It was only a guideline at the time but what it does show is that, even back then, there was an awareness of this issue and I was not playing at a high level ( and never have ) at the time. Unquote . The point I would now like to reiterate is that ALL CLUBS would surely have been notified, which begs further questions such as, was this ignored at club level, or even International level, or by the players themselves. Was it just the RFU who offered this advice and the other Home Unions didn't ? There will be a lot of digging around to be done before anything gets settled.
Edited by WESTCOMBE RANGER - 29 Mar 2023 at 10:22 |
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The older I get, the better I was.
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billesleyexile
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Joined: 20 Jun 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1855 |
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Posted: 29 Mar 2023 at 10:49 |
It's not about using today's knowledge to hold the past responsible though, it's about trying to understand if the past's knowledge was applied at the time. If it wasn't, there's a case. The whole thing with tobacco is not 'we know there's a problem now, so we'll hammer the tobacco companies for what they did then', it's 'the tobacco companies knew/suspected more than they let on for a couple of decades so we'll hammer them for the damage done while that was the case.' What's (potentially rightly) worrying people in rugby is that there *could* be a similar situation - and part of the court case is to get to the bottom of that - or at least start the process. I don't want to fall into lazy 'no smoke without fire' cliches, but people are a bit worried for something where they know no-one's done anything wrong. On the second bit, it'll end up being like car insurance. *If* there's actually a case to answer, and to be honest all anyone at the moment is doing is - probably rightly - looking into it, then it'll be at best 'being a rugby player was on the balance of probability a contributory factor', and settlements will have to reflect that. You're absolutely right that we're probably sailing into the waters of existential crisis at this point, but we can't (and arguably shouldn't) therefore just wish it away.
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keep the faith
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Richard Lowther
Coaching staff
Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6528 |
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Posted: 21 Apr 2023 at 17:44 |
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Richard Lowther
Coaching staff
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Posted: 21 Apr 2023 at 17:57 |
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Richard Lowther
Coaching staff
Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6528 |
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Posted: 28 Apr 2023 at 18:52 |
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Steve@Mose
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Posted: 27 Jul 2023 at 08:23 |
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Concussion: Wales rugby great JPR Williams' fear after study
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