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SurreyRugby View Drop Down
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Points: 144 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SurreyRugby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 17:34
Raider. We all see beauty in different places. There will those that think Elle MacPherson is plain and ugly. Others will see Boris Johnson as a sex symbol. Each to their own Raider. all the best....great banter - SR
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HAVANT TONY View Drop Down
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Points: 537 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HAVANT TONY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 18:15
An absolute ton of waffling gone on without the real question being answered I reckon😴

Edited by HAVANT TONY - 14 Mar 2022 at 18:23
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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 19:55
Originally posted by FEZ ANT PLUCKER FEZ ANT PLUCKER wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

As dorking have a better fly half playing at centre, the offer of better playing facilities, coaching and teamwork probably swayed him. He is good, but not as good matt noble.


Dorking have better playing facilities than Worthing - are you serious?


Raider. Is there any truth in the rumour that Messrs Birch, Anscombe, and Spurgeon left Worthing because your DOR upset them and brought in young players from Harlequins Academy whom he favoured. I dont know so I am just asking, but the grapevine of rugby gossip continues to thrive. I am just trying to understand why they left Worthing a L4 club to join Dorking who aspire to be a L4 club again.


I have no idea if your assumption as to why the 3 named players left Worthing for Dorking (although in Spurgeon's case he played a couple of games having retired through injury several years ago).

As I understand it When a Premiership side makes Academy players available they need to play - this may be every week or only irregularity but when available the Premiership side expects them to be picked.   (please note - this is not an official response just my personal understanding)
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FEZ ANT PLUCKER View Drop Down
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Points: 1014 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEZ ANT PLUCKER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 11:06
Originally posted by dropout22 dropout22 wrote:

Originally posted by PM009 PM009 wrote:

Originally posted by HAVANT TONY HAVANT TONY wrote:

So if Dorking dont pay then I can only wonder why Harry Anscombe who dropped a league mid season and joined Dorking from Worthing a Nat 2 side(who pay all of their players) ?
I know Brockham is a lovely part of the world but I dont reckon he joined for the scenery😂

Along with Henry Birch. Some serious negotiating skills by Dorking getting them both in mid season for nothing Clap

From what i understand Henry Birch didn't see eye to eye with Jordan Turner-Hall.

Dropout22. Can you enlarge on your comment as to why said players left Worthing to move to Dorking?  Raider has no idea and nor do I.
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dropout22 View Drop Down
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Points: 516 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dropout22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 13:01
So i understood Henry Birch didnt get on with Jordan Turner Hall. This was told to me by a Dorking player.

Speaking to Worthing players - I understood Henry Anscombe was in and out of the squad (i didnt check up on this with stats) - thus he wasn't content at Worthing and such moved to Dorking. 

I have no idea for the last player? 

Henry birch is player/forwards coach at the club now. After hearing a club at Level 6 pay their head coach £15k a year - i'm sure his role at the club isn't without good remuneration. 

Dorking has a fabulous location, good home support and a stable business set/up. Not to mention first class s&c and physio support. This is not too say Worthing don't, but Dorking does have a very good club set/up for the level that i'm sure attracts players.
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FEZ ANT PLUCKER View Drop Down
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Points: 1014 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FEZ ANT PLUCKER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 18:26
Thanks Dropout22
Pretty much as I understood the situation. Henry Birch came to us first and as an RFU regional coach he joined us as Forwards coach replacing Matt Higgins as someone has already mentioned. I just didnt know his reason for leaving Worthing, however he may have influenced Anscombe and Spurgeon as they followed soon after. Maybe they had separate unconnected reasons for the move.  
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Jasper99 View Drop Down
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Points: 98 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jasper99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 19:57
TBH I don't give a pheasant for Dorking and any financial illusions. I am however very interested in 2nd team rugby and why a club would not want to allow those teams into the league structure. NIMBYism or a genuine arguable reason?
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MikeGC View Drop Down
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Points: 474 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 22:18
No idea what the situation is going to be like in the area you are discussing but after a quick look the proposal for Premier North appears to be OK-ish
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Mark W-J View Drop Down
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Points: 3646 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 07:35
Originally posted by Jasper99 Jasper99 wrote:

TBH I don't give a pheasant for Dorking and any financial illusions. I am however very interested in 2nd team rugby and why a club would not want to allow those teams into the league structure. NIMBYism or a genuine arguable reason?
My understanding is that lower league clubs fear that players would rather be part of the set-up at a higher-level club, playing mainly 2nd XV rugby but training with the 1st team squad and with a possibility (however small) of playing national league rugby, than registered with a level 7/8 club.  It might not apply in all areas of the country, but in Middlesex & Surrey - where there are a lot of clubs playing at level 3-6 - it's a worry for the lower clubs who are already struggling to put out a competitive team.
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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 13:01
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Jasper99 Jasper99 wrote:

TBH I don't give a pheasant for Dorking and any financial illusions. I am however very interested in 2nd team rugby and why a club would not want to allow those teams into the league structure. NIMBYism or a genuine arguable reason?

My understanding is that lower league clubs fear that players would rather be part of the set-up at a higher-level club, playing mainly 2nd XV rugby but training with the 1st team squad and with a possibility (however small) of playing national league rugby, than registered with a level 7/8 club.  It might not apply in all areas of the country, but in Middlesex & Surrey - where there are a lot of clubs playing at level 3-6 - it's a worry for the lower clubs who are already struggling to put out a competitive team.


I would have thought level 7/8 was too low for a number of 2nd teams (and some 3rd teams - Richmond?)
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Mark W-J View Drop Down
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Points: 3646 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 13:25
OK, it's just an example.  I thought the whole point was putting 2nd XVs into county leagues, which is L8.  But the principle remains the same.
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dropout22 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Jasper99 Jasper99 wrote:

TBH I don't give a pheasant for Dorking and any financial illusions. I am however very interested in 2nd team rugby and why a club would not want to allow those teams into the league structure. NIMBYism or a genuine arguable reason?

My understanding is that lower league clubs fear that players would rather be part of the set-up at a higher-level club, playing mainly 2nd XV rugby but training with the 1st team squad and with a possibility (however small) of playing national league rugby, than registered with a level 7/8 club.  It might not apply in all areas of the country, but in Middlesex & Surrey - where there are a lot of clubs playing at level 3-6 - it's a worry for the lower clubs who are already struggling to put out a competitive team.


I would have thought level 7/8 was too low for a number of 2nd teams (and some 3rd teams - Richmond?)

Richmond 4th XV beat the Old Alleynians 1st XV (Level 7) 44-10 back in september so you'd be correct.
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Jasper99 View Drop Down
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Points: 98 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jasper99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 22:00
Clifton beat Taunton 2s pre-season. Taunton 2s put 30 on the Navy, were competitive v Hartbury Uni side, plus would match a lot of level 5 sides.
Clifton have lost 3 games at level 9!! Level 3 and 4 rugby is clearly very attritional on squad players.
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SurreyRugby View Drop Down
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Points: 144 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SurreyRugby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 07:56
In my experience. Rarely do first team squad players at national league level actually play for the 2nd team. Keep 2nd teams in merit leagues. If admitted they will muck up the current system.
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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Jasper99 Jasper99 wrote:

Clifton beat Taunton 2s pre-season. Taunton 2s put 30 on the Navy, were competitive v Hartbury Uni side, plus would match a lot of level 5 sides.
Clifton have lost 3 games at level 9!! Level 3 and 4 rugby is clearly very attritional on squad players.


I would totally agree, it isn't unusual for clubs to have 10 or more out injured at some stage in the season.

I would think a team needs 30-35 players capable of level 3/4 for a successful season.
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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 11:21
Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

In my experience. Rarely do first team squad players at national league level actually play for the 2nd team. Keep 2nd teams in merit leagues. If admitted they will muck up the current system.


However, if rugby players are anything like cricketers the younger players of today are only interested in playing competitive league games.
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Robb View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

In my experience. Rarely do first team squad players at national league level actually play for the 2nd team. Keep 2nd teams in merit leagues. If admitted they will muck up the current system.

If they are to be admitted, I would say add a new bottom league to the county leagues and stick all the 2nd XVs in there so they don't compete against the smaller clubs until a year later. It's not perfect but at least it delays any mucking up of the system and stops them reaching the regional leagues for at least 3-4 years.
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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 2022 at 09:56
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

In my experience. Rarely do first team squad players at national league level actually play for the 2nd team. Keep 2nd teams in merit leagues. If admitted they will muck up the current system.


If they are to be admitted, I would say add a new bottom league to the county leagues and stick all the 2nd XVs in there so they don't compete against the smaller clubs until a year later. It's not perfect but at least it delays any mucking up of the system and stops them reaching the regional leagues for at least 3-4 years.


I suppose that is one way of stopping clubs entering 2nd teams in the league structures - many are going to be too strong at level 7/8 let alone wasting their time starting at level 11/12.
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Hare today! View Drop Down
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[/QUOTE] I suppose that is one way of stopping clubs entering 2nd teams in the league structures - many are going to be too strong at level 7/8 let alone wasting their time starting at level 11/12.[/QUOTE]

Many will be, which is why it's laughable that they have now introduced a ceiling at L7 so any lower XV entering the ECC will not be able to progress higher than L7 Confused
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Originally posted by Hare today! Hare today! wrote:

[/QUOTE] I
I suppose that is one way of stopping clubs entering 2nd teams in the league structures - many are going to be too strong at level 7/8 let alone wasting their time starting at level 11/12.[/QUOTE]

Many will be, which is why it's laughable that they have now introduced a ceiling at L7 so any lower XV entering the ECC will not be able to progress higher than L7 Confused
[/QUOTE]

And I hope they don't get involved in the RFU cups.
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