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Worcester winding up order

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Richard Lowther View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2022 at 14:06
The plain and simple truth is that clubs are still spending too much money on players and this leads to all their financial problems. Covid is a smokescreen - and for some a godsend as it opened up new financial packages. 

Until clubs - at all levels - realise this, the same thing will keep happening. 

The interesting thing is what happens at the next RFU/Premiership deal. Will the RFU finally stand up to the demands of the clubs and decrease the amount of subsidiaries they give - or will it be another cave in to the detriment of the 'community game'?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2022 at 14:10
Originally posted by dropout22 dropout22 wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Irish are owned by Mick Crossan, who is the primary shareholder in their shirt sponsor, Powerday.  Not sure how deep his pockets are.

Quite deep

£45million according to Google. 

Is that quite deep? It's certainly a lot deeper than mine but you can quickly burn through that with big losses each year. 

What is London Irish's deal with Brentford over the stadium revenue - especially bars - for each game? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2022 at 14:23
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by dropout22 dropout22 wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Irish are owned by Mick Crossan, who is the primary shareholder in their shirt sponsor, Powerday.  Not sure how deep his pockets are.

Quite deep

£45million according to Google. 

Is that quite deep? It's certainly a lot deeper than mine but you can quickly burn through that with big losses each year. 

What is London Irish's deal with Brentford over the stadium revenue - especially bars - for each game? 

£3.5M (rounded up) loss on last accounts, £5.5 accounts before. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2022 at 15:25
The Premiership clubs are living in fantasy land.

Wasps need to increase revenue by £500,000 every home game - that is what 25,000 extra fans at £20 a ticket, £25 with VAT.

They cannot give away that many tickets.

That is with the RFu funding them to the tune of several million a year.

Unfortunately, Rugby is a minority sport in England, with 10% of the market at best. The French clubs, play in a larger country where there is less interest in Soccer. So they can get bigger gates and more TV money.

Our clubs are never going to be able to compete on salary with that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dropout22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2022 at 19:36
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by dropout22 dropout22 wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Irish are owned by Mick Crossan, who is the primary shareholder in their shirt sponsor, Powerday.  Not sure how deep his pockets are.

Quite deep

£45million according to Google. 

Is that quite deep? It's certainly a lot deeper than mine but you can quickly burn through that with big losses each year. 

What is London Irish's deal with Brentford over the stadium revenue - especially bars - for each game? 

I've understood from speaking to business partners of his he's around the 300m mark. 

They wanted £300,000 a year for the shirt sponsorship he was covering.

I'd imagine a split of bar monies and ticket sales, and not much more then that...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wobbler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2022 at 20:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paddym Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2022 at 22:01
Originally posted by dropout22 dropout22 wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by dropout22 dropout22 wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Irish are owned by Mick Crossan, who is the primary shareholder in their shirt sponsor, Powerday.  Not sure how deep his pockets are.

Quite deep

£45million according to Google. 

Is that quite deep? It's certainly a lot deeper than mine but you can quickly burn through that with big losses each year. 

What is London Irish's deal with Brentford over the stadium revenue - especially bars - for each game? 

I've understood from speaking to business partners of his he's around the 300m mark. 

They wanted £300,000 a year for the shirt sponsorship he was covering.

I'd imagine a split of bar monies and ticket sales, and not much more then that...

As far as I am aware Irish get all monies from ticket sales as they pay a fixed cost for use of stadium. Bar and catering is split unlike deal with Madejski.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fly Half Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2022 at 07:28
What is particularly worrying, is that these apparent financial problems, come after the CVC (27% ? ) injection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2022 at 09:13
The press are rightly stating the Barcelona are mortgaging their future by borrowing money against future sales, but that is precisely what the Premiership and Six Nations have done with CVC, but it is sold as an investment.

They have paid off some debts by selling future income -on the pretence that CVC will help them gain more lucrative TV contracts out of the ether.

They are also putting a value on the Premiership shares, apparently the premiership is worth an extra £60m this season, permitting Wasps to claim £3.7m in profit on their P-shares.

Thus reducing their nominal loss to £6m.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2022 at 12:25
I was looking at the Companies House site to see how the clubs declared the CVC monies and any Covid related help they received.

I didn't get past Worcester, the first club I looked at. WRFC Players Limited is a subsidiary of WRFC Trading Limited which is a subsidiary of Worcester Sport Limited which is owned by Bond Group Sixways Limited.  

Which is the one that HMRC have an interest in?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2022 at 17:01
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

I was looking at the Companies House site to see how the clubs declared the CVC monies and any Covid related help they received.

I didn't get past Worcester, the first club I looked at. WRFC Players Limited is a subsidiary of WRFC Trading Limited which is a subsidiary of Worcester Sport Limited which is owned by Bond Group Sixways Limited.  

Which is the one that HMRC have an interest in?
 I have that some of those companies are brand new.......................................less than two months old.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2022 at 17:43
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

I was looking at the Companies House site to see how the clubs declared the CVC monies and any Covid related help they received.

I didn't get past Worcester, the first club I looked at. WRFC Players Limited is a subsidiary of WRFC Trading Limited which is a subsidiary of Worcester Sport Limited which is owned by Bond Group Sixways Limited.  

Which is the one that HMRC have an interest in?
 I have that some of those companies are brand new.......................................less than two months old.

I don't know what you are looking at but Trading and Players registered  in 1996, Sport and BGS in 2018. All have submitted accounts. 

There are other connected companies plus companies no longer live from previous ownerships.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2022 at 17:48
Just read on the Wuss board, they sounded quite concerned that businesses have popped up, I have no idea which is which.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2022 at 21:57
There are 3 new companies that Colin Goldring is a director of.

Sixways Medical ltd

Sixways Property ltd

Sixways Stadium ltd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2022 at 09:02
The CVC deal was probably the worst thing that could've happened to the Prem clubs, who, mostly, promptly spent their injection on getting out of holes rather than wise investment.
You can't live on capital alone. Not for long, anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red over White Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2022 at 11:00
I suspect HMRC would give a business a Time to Pay arrangement to see them through short term difficulties. Proceedings such as winding-up would only be considered if the business failed to honour that agreement, or the chances of paying off the debt within a reasonable timescale were not there. Banks are also unlikely to loan money to pay off debts, unless there was the prospect of new money coming into the business.

Originally posted by kingsheathlad kingsheathlad wrote:

The days when HMRC allowed a time to pay agreement appear to have gone, its a case  of  approach your bank for funds. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red over White Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2022 at 11:09
WRFC Trading Limited according to https://www.cityam.com/premiership-club-worcester-hit-with-hmrc-winding-up-order-reports-suggest/ , which also says that company's accounts are/were overdue.

Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

I was looking at the Companies House site to see how the clubs declared the CVC monies and any Covid related help they received.

I didn't get past Worcester, the first club I looked at. WRFC Players Limited is a subsidiary of WRFC Trading Limited which is a subsidiary of Worcester Sport Limited which is owned by Bond Group Sixways Limited.  

Which is the one that HMRC have an interest in?
 I have that some of those companies are brand new.......................................less than two months old.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2022 at 11:18
Originally posted by Red over White Red over White wrote:

I suspect HMRC would give a business a Time to Pay arrangement to see them through short term difficulties. Proceedings such as winding-up would only be considered if the business failed to honour that agreement, or the chances of paying off the debt within a reasonable timescale were not there. Banks are also unlikely to loan money to pay off debts, unless there was the prospect of new money coming into the business.

Originally posted by kingsheathlad kingsheathlad wrote:

The days when HMRC allowed a time to pay agreement appear to have gone, its a case  of  approach your bank for funds. 
From what I read, Worcester had already defaulted for over a year. How much longer should they be granted? Perhaps it is time for them to fall on their sword, or fall to a level that they can sustain until such time as they are ready to climb back up the league.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2022 at 11:32
Looking at the Worcester fans comments, it would seem their investors were not rugby people, but interested in making money, have they been taking money out of the club, who knows?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2022 at 11:37
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Looking at the Worcester fans comments, it would seem their investors were not rugby people, but interested in making money, have they been taking money out of the club, who knows?
Companies House.
Eventually, when accounts are filed.
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