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Worcester winding up order |
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Richard Lowther
Coaching staff Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6528 |
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Lots of speculation in the Telegraph about Premiership continuing with 12 clubs should Worcester go and temp increase in salary cap to allow other clubs to sign up their players.
Also what would happen to P shares.
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Kimbo
World Cup Winner Joined: 31 May 2007 Location: 'incleh Status: Offline Points: 6186 |
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Bit tenuous to refer to Goldring as a lawyer.
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Our Club |
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WEvans
World Cup Winner Joined: 08 Dec 2016 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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Well if that did happen and the owners were to stay in place they could charge them with bringing the game into disrepute and ban them from the game. But this is the RFU who are seemingly quite happy for those who orchestrated the cheating at Saracens for at least seven seasons to remain in place so you can forget that. |
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11138 |
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The house used by academy players has apparently been repossessed. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Steve@Mose
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2760 |
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Former CEO Jim O'Toole announces bid to buy troubled club
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Fly Half
First XV regular Joined: 15 Jun 2019 Location: Otley Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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Surely the first question is what happened to the approx £15 mill Worcester should have received from the CVC deal? How can a club receive around £15 mill a couple of years ago, yet supposedly now owe the tax man around £6 mill. Am I missing something? After the Saracens farce and the ongoing situation at Wasps, this really doesnt look good for the rfu. The Rugby Paper are also reporting that two other clubs might have similar problems. I assume all of these clubs received approx £15 mill via the CVC deal? |
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11138 |
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O'Toole was on BBC Radio 4 Today programme, he has a meeting with the Americans today. Did not sound like a done deal yet.
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5026 |
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I am sceptical that any deal can be done this side of Administration. Any buyer, buying before Administration will have to pick up all the known and unknown liabilities of the company. For that to be something a sensible buyer would contemplate would require many weeks if not many months of due diligence examination by accountants and lawyers. In the circumstances that Worcester Warriors are in, 99% of the time a sensible purchaser would treat with the Administrator and only buy the assets they wanted and 'Tupe' across the staff and players. It is a smart move to flag interest at this stage because you could place yourself at the head of the queue in negotiating with the Administrator. I would be pretty certain that any deal that is done will be via a Pre-Pack Administration Just to provide everyone with a bit more understanding of the practicalities of what happens when companies get close to insolvency: 1. Sensible directors will take insolvency advice to ensure they are not 'wrongfully trading' if they were wrongfully trading then they expose themselves to potential personal liability from the creditors 2. The advisors (usually insolvency specialists) see this advisory appointment as an opportunity to get into position to get the Administration gig 3. The insolvency advisors will work with the directors and potentially interested parties to work out the shape of a pre pack administration deal 4. Once this is agreed the directors put the company into Administration and the Administrator will convey those assets (for value) from the company into a Newco phoenix company owned by the new investors 5. This pre -pack could be challenged by the unsecured creditors who usually come out with nowt 6. The employees are tuped (transfer of undertaking) across to the Newco 7. In Worcester's case there are a number of complications in that there is a regulator involved ('the RFU') and HMRC are all over it and the directors and the insolvency advisors face additional scrutiny so everyone will be treading very carefully. A Pre Pack Administration is a legitimate route to save the 'goodwill' in the business and to try to preserve some continuity .......in Worcester's case the imminence of the new season means that a deal has to happen swiftly and from a reading of the press reports it is probably unlikely that Worcester have the money to pay August salaries and after the media attention creditors will be screaming for payment. It will be interesting to see what the RFU do given that last time this happened to a Premiership club they were dropped to the bottom of the pyramid. New owners are unlikely to invest if there was little chance that Worcester warriors could remain in the Premiership or quickly get back into i Of course the proposed New Consortium could just but the shares in the Worcester Warriors company but that is very very unlikely. From my reading of the press reports it is likely that a lot of work has been going on in the background but I still think an Administration with all that entails is a more likely scenario than a sale of the shares in Worcester Warriors. Just my opinion of course
Edited by Big Eddie - 24 Aug 2022 at 10:44 |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11138 |
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People keep mentioning administration, but the HMRC has submitted a winding up petition. Which is why the accounts are frozen. Unless someone pays HMRC, I believe we are looking at liquidation. And it is not stopping here, HMRC wants its money and every club will need to pay up, or face a similar situation. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5026 |
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You could be right Camquin.......but HMRC would accept something rather than nothing so new investors could possibly do a side deal with HMRC ......as long as that was legally tenable under insolvency law........that aspect is definitely beyond my knowledge I am not sure that a winding up order stops the Directors putting the Company into Administration though. You may know better than me Camquin
Edited by Big Eddie - 24 Aug 2022 at 10:51 |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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WEvans
World Cup Winner Joined: 08 Dec 2016 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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I think I have found the flaw in your argument Eddie. No sensible buyer would ever buy a rugby club.
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5026 |
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WEvans..........you are absolutely spot on! Commercially it is a bonkers proposition and with a number of class actions in the pipeline even more so. |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Halliford
World Cup Winner Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4146 |
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Working on the principle that I can’t take it with me and none of those mentioned in my will need it, I might buy a rugby club. As the current Mrs Halliford keeps telling me as she gives me the latest holiday brochure - you can’t take it with you! Seriously there is already an impediment to a pre-pack whic( is the break-up of the land and the sale of the Car Park, and other elements to companies not covered by any Administration.
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Runitback
World Cup Winner Joined: 22 Sep 2014 Location: North Status: Offline Points: 1210 |
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The present owners would "appear" to be nothing other than asset strippers and have managed to strip anything of value from the rugby club . . ie car park and training pitches, at below market rates with great development potential. I fear the worst for Worcester . . but that is business and unfortunately rugby clubs do not make money! I very much doubt any America investor will be forth coming!
PS Halliford . . . loads of clubs are available :-) PPS ALL OF THE ABOVE IS SAID " WITHOUT PREJUDICE"!!!!
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Run with it
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FHLH
World Cup Winner Cambridge Joined: 19 Apr 2009 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 5252 |
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If I remember my insolvency law correctly, any insolvency practitioner would have to investigate pre-insolvency transaction to ensure that any such transaction was at market value and for the benefit of the company. Again, if I remember correctly, The presence of a Winding Up petition carries a separate and more onerous investigation when compared to liquidation. But then I haven't undertaken any insolvency work for 35 years 😎 Just saying ......
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5026 |
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The one thing that we can all be sure on is that this is a complete mess and whatever the press reports are about new consortia riding to the rescue etc it doesn't look promising... a real headache for Worcester and its supporters, the RFU and the rest of the Premiership clubs who are sure to be impacted one way or another
Edited by Big Eddie - 25 Aug 2022 at 06:41 |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11138 |
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According to the Worcester message board, the club has to provide the RFU with sufficient assurances they can complete the season by the end of August, or they will be ejected. I assume the other clubs also have to provide this guarantee. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Steve@Mose
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2760 |
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Worcester Warriors players and staff remain 'in the dark' over future
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No 7
World Cup Winner Joined: 10 Oct 2011 Location: LONDON Status: Offline Points: 1866 |
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Six million owed to HRMC pluse 14 million loan . The directors are asset stripping and selling off various surrounding areas including the multistorey car park to companies they own ! . How can this be allowed to happen . The saddest thing is the players and staff not getting paid their wages. It is one the hardest ways I know to make a living and the dedication and comittment
required is for most players not rewarded sufficiently.
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Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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FHLH
World Cup Winner Cambridge Joined: 19 Apr 2009 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 5252 |
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If correct, there is legalisation in place to reverse the sale
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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