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Worcester winding up order

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Richard Lowther View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2022 at 18:56
Lots of speculation in the Telegraph about Premiership continuing with 12 clubs should Worcester go and temp increase in salary cap to allow other clubs to sign up their players.

Also what would happen to P shares. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2022 at 19:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 16:25
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62630861

Reading this does not look good. Looks like the directors might be asset stripping before administration by the fact their other companies are now magically buying up Worcester's money making assets like the car park.

Exactly my thoughts when I read the piece in the BBC just now. Strip the income-generating assets, increase the rent to the Rugby Club, force it into administration, pay creditors a small proportion of what they are owed and restart with no debt. Isn't that how it goes? Except that HMRC may have cottoned on and, hopefully, the RFU won't allow it. Not holding my breath over the latter .....

If a layman like you and me can see it, then no doubt HMRC can see it too. The problem is what can the RFU do about it? 


Well if that did happen and the owners were to stay in place they could charge them with bringing the game into disrepute and ban them from the game.

But this is the RFU who are seemingly quite happy for those who orchestrated the cheating at Saracens for at least seven seasons to remain in place so you can forget that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 16:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 23:36
Former CEO Jim O'Toole announces bid to buy troubled club

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Worcester Warriors could be saved from going into administration following an approach from a consortium led by former chief executive Jim O'Toole.

Irishman O'Toole, who still lives in the city, has told BBC Hereford & Worcester he has had serious interest from an American investor, which would also involving local businesses.

Warriors remain in dialogue with HMRC over their unpaid tax bill.

"I just don't want this city without a professional rugby club," said O'Toole.

"I still have a big emotional attachment to Worcester and I just want to be able to help in some small way. It's about saving the club, but in a sustainable fashion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fly Half Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 07:29
Surely the first question is what happened to the approx £15 mill Worcester should have received from the CVC deal?

How can a club receive around £15 mill a couple of years ago, yet supposedly now owe the tax man around £6 mill. Am I missing something?

After the Saracens farce and the ongoing situation at Wasps, this really doesnt look good for the rfu. The Rugby Paper are also reporting that two other clubs might have similar problems. I assume all of these clubs received approx £15 mill via the CVC deal?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 08:38
O'Toole was on BBC Radio 4 Today programme, he has a meeting with the Americans today. Did not sound like a done deal yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 09:56
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

O'Toole was on BBC Radio 4 Today programme, he has a meeting with the Americans today. Did not sound like a done deal yet.

I am sceptical that any deal can be done this side of Administration. Any buyer, buying before Administration will have to pick up all the known and unknown liabilities of the company. For that to be something a sensible buyer would contemplate would require many weeks if not many months of due diligence examination by accountants and lawyers.

In the circumstances that Worcester Warriors are in, 99% of the time a sensible purchaser would treat with the Administrator and only buy the assets they wanted and 'Tupe' across the staff and players.

It is a smart move to flag interest at this stage because you could place yourself at the head of the queue in negotiating with the Administrator.

I would be pretty certain that any deal that is done will be via a Pre-Pack Administration

Just to provide everyone with a bit more understanding of  the practicalities of what happens when companies get close to insolvency:

1. Sensible directors will take insolvency advice to ensure they are not 'wrongfully trading' if they were wrongfully trading then they expose themselves to potential personal liability from the creditors
2. The advisors (usually insolvency specialists) see this advisory appointment as an opportunity to get into position to get the Administration gig
3. The insolvency advisors will work with the directors and potentially interested parties to work out the shape of a pre pack administration deal
4. Once this is agreed the directors put the company into Administration and the Administrator will convey those assets (for value)  from the company into a Newco phoenix company owned by the new investors 
5. This pre -pack could be challenged by the unsecured creditors who usually come out with nowt
6. The employees are tuped (transfer of undertaking) across to the Newco
7. In Worcester's case there are a number of complications in that there is a regulator involved ('the RFU') and HMRC are all over it and the directors and the insolvency advisors face additional scrutiny so everyone will be treading very carefully.

A Pre Pack Administration is a legitimate route to save the 'goodwill' in the business and to try to preserve some continuity .......in Worcester's case the imminence of the new season means that a deal has to happen swiftly and from a reading of the press reports it is probably unlikely that Worcester have the money to pay August salaries and after the media attention creditors will be screaming for payment.

It will be interesting to see what the RFU do given that last time this happened to a Premiership club they were dropped to the bottom of the pyramid. 

New owners are unlikely to invest if there was little chance that Worcester warriors could remain in the Premiership or quickly get back into i

Of course the proposed New Consortium could just but the shares in the Worcester Warriors company but that is very very unlikely.

From my reading of the press reports  it is likely that a lot of work has been going on in the background but I still think an Administration with all that entails is a more likely scenario than a sale of the shares in Worcester Warriors.

Just my opinion of course 


Edited by Big Eddie - 24 Aug 2022 at 10:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 10:33
People keep mentioning administration, but the HMRC has submitted a winding up petition.
Which is why the accounts are frozen.
Unless someone pays HMRC, I believe we are looking at liquidation.

And it is not stopping here, HMRC wants its money and every club will need to pay up, or face a similar situation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 10:47
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

People keep mentioning administration, but the HMRC has submitted a winding up petition.
Which is why the accounts are frozen.
Unless someone pays HMRC, I believe we are looking at liquidation.

And it is not stopping here, HMRC wants its money and every club will need to pay up, or face a similar situation.


You could be right Camquin.......but HMRC would accept something rather than nothing so new investors could possibly do a side deal with HMRC ......as long as that was legally tenable under insolvency law........that aspect is definitely beyond my knowledge

I am not sure that a winding up order stops the Directors putting the Company into Administration though. You may know better than me Camquin


Edited by Big Eddie - 24 Aug 2022 at 10:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 14:41
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

O'Toole was on BBC Radio 4 Today programme, he has a meeting with the Americans today. Did not sound like a done deal yet.

I am sceptical that any deal can be done this side of Administration. Any buyer, buying before Administration will have to pick up all the known and unknown liabilities of the company. For that to be something a sensible buyer would contemplate would require many weeks if not many months of due diligence examination by accountants and lawyers.


I think I have found the flaw in  your argument Eddie. No sensible buyer would ever buy a rugby club.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 15:34
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

O'Toole was on BBC Radio 4 Today programme, he has a meeting with the Americans today. Did not sound like a done deal yet.

I am sceptical that any deal can be done this side of Administration. Any buyer, buying before Administration will have to pick up all the known and unknown liabilities of the company. For that to be something a sensible buyer would contemplate would require many weeks if not many months of due diligence examination by accountants and lawyers.


I think I have found the flaw in  your argument Eddie. No sensible buyer would ever buy a rugby club.

WEvans..........you are absolutely spot on! LOLLOLLOLLOL

Commercially it is a bonkers proposition and with a number of class actions in the pipeline even more so.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 17:11
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

O'Toole was on BBC Radio 4 Today programme, he has a meeting with the Americans today. Did not sound like a done deal yet.

I am sceptical that any deal can be done this side of Administration. Any buyer, buying before Administration will have to pick up all the known and unknown liabilities of the company. For that to be something a sensible buyer would contemplate would require many weeks if not many months of due diligence examination by accountants and lawyers.


I think I have found the flaw in  your argument Eddie. No sensible buyer would ever buy a rugby club.

WEvans..........you are absolutely spot on! LOLLOLLOLLOL

Commercially it is a bonkers proposition and with a number of class actions in the pipeline even more so.



Working on the principle that I can’t take it with me and none of those mentioned in my will need it, I might buy a rugby club. As the current Mrs Halliford keeps telling me as she gives me the latest holiday brochure - you can’t take it with you!

Seriously there is already an impediment to a pre-pack whic( is the break-up of the land and the sale of the Car Park, and other elements to companies not covered by any Administration.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 21:00
The present owners would "appear" to be nothing other than asset strippers and have managed to strip anything of value from the rugby club . . ie car park and training pitches, at below market rates with great development potential. I fear the worst for Worcester . . but that is business and unfortunately rugby clubs do not make money! I very much doubt any America investor will be forth coming!

PS Halliford . . . loads of clubs are available :-)

PPS ALL OF THE ABOVE IS SAID " WITHOUT PREJUDICE"!!!!
Run with it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2022 at 04:39
If I remember my insolvency law correctly, any insolvency practitioner would have to investigate pre-insolvency transaction to ensure that any such transaction was at market value and for the benefit of the company. Again, if I remember correctly, The presence of a Winding Up petition carries a separate and more onerous investigation when compared to liquidation.

But then I haven't undertaken any insolvency work for 35 years 😎

Just saying ......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2022 at 06:39
The one thing that we can all be sure on is that this is a complete mess and whatever the press reports are about new consortia riding to the rescue etc it doesn't look promising... a real headache for Worcester and its supporters, the RFU and the rest of the Premiership clubs who are sure to be impacted one way or another

Edited by Big Eddie - 25 Aug 2022 at 06:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2022 at 08:57
According to the Worcester message board, the club has to provide the RFU with sufficient assurances they can complete the season by the end of August, or they will be ejected.

I assume the other clubs also have to provide this guarantee.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2022 at 13:22
Worcester Warriors players and staff remain 'in the dark' over future

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Worcester Warriors players and staff remain in a "state of limbo" with a pre-season fixture just over a week away.

Earlier this month, HMRC hit the Premiership club with a winding-up petition over unpaid tax, believed to be in excess of £6m.

While the coaches and playing group have continued to train, the non-playing staff have been told not to come into work.

It is understood the club's bank accounts have also been frozen.

On Monday, co-owners Jason Whittingham and Colin Goldring released a statement saying they were "working through a number of options with our advisors", adding "these include solutions for keeping rugby at Sixways".

It is thought club staff have had little direct dialogue with the owners, and only saw the statement shortly before it was released.

Sources have also told the BBC their wages have been paid sporadically for the past few months, and that they are not expecting to receive their wages on time next week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2022 at 14:08
Six million owed to HRMC pluse 14 million loan . The directors are asset stripping and selling off various surrounding areas including the multistorey car park to companies they own ! . How can this be allowed to happen . The saddest thing is the players and staff not getting paid their wages. It is one the hardest ways I know to make a living and the dedication and comittment
required is for most players not rewarded sufficiently. 

Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2022 at 18:00
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

.....selling off various surrounding areas including the multistorey car park to companies they own ! 

If correct, there is legalisation in place to reverse the sale
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