National League Rugby Discussion Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk > Clubhouse chat
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Purpose of the Premiership
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

IMPORTANT Remember to read the rules of the board and abide by them when posting.

Purpose of the Premiership
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
rugbychris View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 02 May 2019
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 141 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 10:57
Academies should be taken away from prem clubs. Reduced in number. Regionalised and run by the RFU. They should be linked to academic institutions and a draft system introduced. 

Save money. Reduce the amount of players languishing in academies so they can play at their clubs. Concentrate on gaining an education as well as potentially playing top level rugby and bring a bit iod excitement with a draft system.
Back to Top
Richard Lowther View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: 19 May 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 6529 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 11:29
Originally posted by Steve@Mose Steve@Mose wrote:

Slightly off topic but it seemed like it should be in this thread:


Quote
England's professional players are the "experts" who need to be "trusted" with a major say in how the sport is run, according to the players' union.

With more than 50 players still out of work following the collapse of Worcester and Wasps, the Rugby Players' Association [RPA] insist the players are "the answer to growing rugby".

The RPA also believe players need a Collective Bargaining Agreement with the sport's authorities, like in American sports, to safeguard the game's future.

'Players need a say like in the US'

In a wide-ranging interview, former Sale and Northampton lock Christian Day, now head of player affairs at the RPA, told BBC Sport: "We believe rugby is evolving to the point where players have to be part of the discussion, at the table, as signatories to the agreements.

"Not anymore as a consulted group. If they want to buy into the players as the future of the game, get the players sat at the table with you and have them part of the discussion."

Day says rugby union needs to look at other professional leagues around the world, such as the National Rugby League in Australia and the National Basketball Association [NBA] in the United States, where the players are part of a Collective Bargaining Agreement [CBA].

"Professional sports around the world evolve and develop over time," Day explained.

"Rugby union only turned professional in the mid-90s, the American professional sports turned in the 60s.

"It's a bit of a misnomer to compare yourself to American sports but that is what athletes do, they want to look around the world at the global superstars.

"The athletes in those leagues all have a say, they are all at the table, they are all part of a Collective Bargaining Agreement [CBA], and they want to engage."

The CBA at the NBA, as an example, is a 600-page document which includes stipulations such as a minimum wage, while the salary cap is fixed as a percentage of the league's revenue.

"That percentage ranges from the NRL to the American sports but it comes back to a fair deal," Day said.

"What number are we going to set, how are we going to protect our low earners and Academy kids, and at the same time ensure our leading players' welfare is protected and they earn money that represents a fair value?"

'Overpaid players is a misconception'

Day is a firm advocate of a minimum wage, which would assist academy players at the start of their careers, and rails against the suggestion wage inflation has been a major contributor to English rugby's financial crisis.

He also stresses that the vast majority of out-of-work players from Worcester and Wasps will need to return to work in some shape or form as a matter of urgency.

"One of the biggest misconceptions of professional rugby is that everyone is on a six-figure salary," Day said.

"I can strongly refute that. There are countless Premiership players on sub-50k and countless academy players on sub-20k.

"It's not like [Wasps and Worcester] players can just sit there and survive on all the money they've built up over the years; that is not the case.

"A lot of messaging recently has been that players are part of the blame and that players earn too much, and that is the solution: the players should earn less.

"The product the players are putting on the pitch currently is outstanding. We have an incredibly competitive Premiership, high-scoring and close games.

The players deserve some credit here. I would really caution against the players being part of the problem.

"One thing I am particular keen on is a minimum wage - I think that would be a really positive step to protect some of those lower earners.

"If we are talking about academy players, it has to be something that is liveable. If we are going to make young players professional athletes then they need a wage they can live off."

'Game must listen to senior players'

Following the demise of Worcester and Wasps, both the Rugby Football Union and Premiership Rugby have promised a root-and-branch review of the way the sport is governed.

A slimmed-down Premiership, a revamped second-tier, and tighter financial regulation are all potential outcomes from the crisis, while the level of the salary cap, currently at £5m, is under constant review.

"Going forwards now, this is why the players need to be at the table," Day added.

"If we are going play in a capped league, I think the players need to part of the discussions as to where we are going to set the cap and why. What is the metric we are going to use, and how it is going to grow over time?

"I think we need to show a bit of trust in the players that they can come to the table.

"Unless people listen to their ideas we will never know. We should absolutely be asking some of those senior guys what is their perspective."

I have a split opinion on Christian Day's comments. 

Players should have a say on player safety etc but are they too associated with the current game to have a clear vision for the future of the game at large, rather than self interest in current players/teams? It is in their interest to protect their income levels but as they (RPA) are only looking after the Premiership players and not the game at large, they are speaking only on behalf of a small minority of players.  We need to be looking at the game at large not just thinking that the top tier sits in isolation and has no impact on the rest of the game. 

What I don't think Day 'gets' is that the players are overpaid in the context of the monies the Premiership clubs receive.  Having a pay deal based upon realistic figures would see a substantial pay cut for most players. What solutions are they offering around this?
Moderator National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC
Back to Top
jimbojetset View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 11 Oct 2017
Location: sale
Status: Offline
Points: 450 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimbojetset Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 11:49
I was in the middle of constructing a long post about balancing what clubs want vs what clubs can afford and essentially it is all about sustainability. If you cannot with confidence, financially maintain your status in a particular league for the next 3/4 years, then you will always be working based on a short term view and that is destined to fail at some point.
Back to Top
Rabbie Burns View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 18 Jul 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3322 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 13:17
This all revolves around what people/players think is an appropriate return for there work. 
So many Christians not enough Lions
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 4433 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 18:18
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Marquee players have dropped to one per squad, I understand why they introduced it at the time to put bums on seats having a "world star" in the squad, but somehow that has sort of faded, there are many "stars" that are home grown these days, an example is the number of Tigers academy players currently in the club first team squad and the England squads too. What Moore says about academy players not good enough for the first team shows just how dumb he is, plenty of under 21 players played for England, Johhny Wilkinson probably the most famous, his comments epitomise the outdated dinosaur attitude of those jealous old men who didn't get paid when they played, some seem to inhabit the RFU.
I think it is 1 per club, unless you already have 2 marquee players under contract - when you can have 2 until the end of either of those contracts
RAID ON
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 4433 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 18:22
Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Academies should be taken away from prem clubs. Reduced in number. Regionalised and run by the RFU. They should be linked to academic institutions and a draft system introduced. 

Save money. Reduce the amount of players languishing in academies so they can play at their clubs. Concentrate on gaining an education as well as potentially playing top level rugby and bring a bit iod excitement with a draft system.


Good idea apart from letting the RFU run them
RAID ON
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3641 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 19:59
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

To be fair Brian said National One players shoulsnot be paid as they are not good enough for the Premiership. I was twisting his words..


People need to understand rugby is now a business, even in the lower leagues, it is no longer a "game", when money came in the sport changed, more radically at some levels for sure, but it has changed. The ball looks the same and so does the pitch, but is not the game I played over 30 years ago. If a club wishes to pay, they can, if a player wishes to seek a paid career, they can, within the rules. It seems to me there is quite a lot of irrational words being spoken, is it jealousy I wonder?
 I remember not so long ago it was dual registered players that caused so much anguish, no real rationality for it, just the green-eyed monster in some cases.
Back to Top
rugbychris View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 02 May 2019
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 141 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2022 at 20:29
Every club representing ANY sport are businesses and always have been. Nothing new. All clubs are businesses. If you can't cover your costs you will fail. Lord only knows why some clubs are allowed to fail and others not.
Back to Top
WEvans View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 1372 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2022 at 11:53
Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Every club representing ANY sport are businesses and always have been. Nothing new. All clubs are businesses. If you can't cover your costs you will fail. Lord only knows why some clubs are allowed to fail and others not.

I never realised when I was playing football for my cub scouts pack at seven that I was part of a business. Amazing what you learn here isn't it? 
Back to Top
Richard Lowther View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: 19 May 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 6529 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2022 at 12:25
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Every club representing ANY sport are businesses and always have been. Nothing new. All clubs are businesses. If you can't cover your costs you will fail. Lord only knows why some clubs are allowed to fail and others not.

I never realised when I was playing football for my cub scouts pack at seven that I was part of a business. Amazing what you learn here isn't it? 

The Scouts are a charity, they need income to maintain their activities, so really a business in another guise. 
Moderator National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC
Back to Top
WEvans View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 1372 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 14:42
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Every club representing ANY sport are businesses and always have been. Nothing new. All clubs are businesses. If you can't cover your costs you will fail. Lord only knows why some clubs are allowed to fail and others not.

I never realised when I was playing football for my cub scouts pack at seven that I was part of a business. Amazing what you learn here isn't it? 

The Scouts are a charity, they need income to maintain their activities, so really a business in another guise. 

Yes and I need income to maintain my activities so I must be a business too.

Every club representing any sport is quite obviously not a business.
Back to Top
Steve@Mose View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2760 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 08:22
Premiership Rugby to 'relaunch' for 2024-25 after demise of Wasps & Worcester

Quote
The 2024-2025 season will see a rebirth of Premiership Rugby, as the league looks to recover from a turbulent period off the field.

It comes after the demise of Wasps and Worcester, with both clubs going out of business this campaign.

One of the architects of The Hundred in cricket has come on board as the league looks to re-establish its identity.

"It is essentially a relaunch of the league," Premiership Rugby boss Simon Massie-Taylor told BBC Sport.

"We need to start moving towards a new system. It needs to look and feel a bit different."

...

Premiership Rugby's four areas of emphasis

With next season a "transitionary year" as the English game resolves its structural issues - as well as it being the last year of the existing Professional Game Agreement (PGA) - Premiership Rugby has outlined four main areas of emphasis going forward:

  • The establishment of an independent financial monitoring panel, which will oversee all club finances, in a bid to avoid the fate that befell Worcester and Wasps.
  • A new sporting commission, which would be independently chaired and make decisions on behalf of the league.
  • Finalising the new PGA, with the biggest area of focus the structure of the English professional game going forward, and a clear vision of what the second-tier Championship looks like and how promotion and relegation will work.
  • Commitment to the growth plan, with an aim to continue to build the league's fanbase, using experience from cricket competition The Hundred to engage a new audience.

The opaque nature of club finances - and the failure to act on a number of warning signs when it came to Wasps and Worcester - has forced the league into an urgent reappraisal, with Premiership Rugby needing much greater access when it comes to club accounts - as is the case in France's professional leagues.

"The key words are financial discipline," explained Massie-Taylor.

"We need to have much more regular reporting, and you need a system where you have regulations in place that create better discipline.

"But it is forward-looking as well. Clubs have been supportive of this and see the need for it, and we are in the process of recruiting an independent chair who will do a full review and come up with detailed recommendations.

"In the meantime we have better financial information to help manage some of the short-term issues that may come up in the current economic environment."

Meanwhile, the sporting commission would "simplify how decisions are made" in a bid to avoid the conflict that has hamstrung decision-making.

The commission would include three independent figures, including a recently retired player, as well as an independent chairperson.

...

Restoring promotion and relegation

As it stands there is no relegation to the Championship next season, although a team can be promoted to the top-flight if they pass the required standards.

The long-term structure therefore remains up in the air, with the Premiership currently consisting of 11 teams after Wasps' and Worcester's relegation.

Either way, strengthening the second tier to ensure a robust promotion and relegation system in the future is now a priority.

"There is an extreme willingness to have a more aligned second tier, because we think that will help it grow," said Massie-Taylor.

"How that works is a topic of conversation at the moment, and linked to that is what happens next season as far as promotion and relegation, because we obviously need to let our Championship colleagues know the rules of engagement.

"You want a Championship which clubs feel more comfortable relegated into. And you also want something where Wasps and Worcester are germinated back to being a successful club again - because we want Wasps and Worcester back in the Premiership."
Back to Top
FHLH View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Cambridge

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 5256 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 12:31
"We want Wasps & Worcester back in the Premiership"

(but we also want promotion from the Championship). Could ground standards be a way to keep clubs out of the Premiership?
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Back to Top
FHLH View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Cambridge

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 5256 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 12:44
Financial monitoring is simple. These are significant businesses and will have financial teams so;

1 Business plan for season submitted by June for following season
2 Monthly signed statement confirming VAT, Income Tax and Corporation Tax have been paid by the relevant due dates
3 Monthly signed statement that all staff have been paid by end of preceding month
4 Monthly Aged Trade Creditor and Debtor statements e.g. 30 days, 60, 90 , 90+,
5 Monthly statement for all non trading income - owner loans etc
6 Quarterly management accounts in standard format to allow comparison between clubs
7  Summary of player contracts to confirm they are within maximum and details of marquee players and contract lengths
8 1 point current season deduction for failure to supply information by end of month
9 To be submitted to RFU not Premiership

Simples.


Edited by FHLH - 14 Dec 2022 at 12:47
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 4433 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 16:34
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Financial monitoring is simple. These are significant businesses and will have financial teams so;

1 Business plan for season submitted by June for following season
2 Monthly signed statement confirming VAT, Income Tax and Corporation Tax have been paid by the relevant due dates
3 Monthly signed statement that all staff have been paid by end of preceding month
4 Monthly Aged Trade Creditor and Debtor statements e.g. 30 days, 60, 90 , 90+,
5 Monthly statement for all non trading income - owner loans etc
6 Quarterly management accounts in standard format to allow comparison between clubs
7  Summary of player contracts to confirm they are within maximum and details of marquee players and contract lengths
8 1 point current season deduction for failure to supply information by end of month
9 To be submitted to RFU not Premiership

Simples.



Why not apply the same criteria as the Top14 - where all teams have to prove they have the finances to complete the season before the season starts?
RAID ON
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 11151 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 16:56
I can only assume because it takes work.

Having listened to SMT and Sweeney in the select committee, actually doing anything that takes work does not seem to be high on their priority list.

The RFU regulations already require every club to submit an acceptable business plan and accounts.
Sweeney Delenda Est
Back to Top
WEvans View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 1372 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 17:32
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

"We want Wasps & Worcester back in the Premiership"

(but we also want promotion from the Championship). Could ground standards be a way to keep clubs out of the Premiership?

To be honest the way their clubs have been behaving I'm more concerned with keeping their clubs in the Premiership and not polluting the rest of us! 
Back to Top
FHLH View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Cambridge

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 5256 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 22:02
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

 

Why not apply the same criteria as the Top14 - where all teams have to prove they have the finances to complete the season before the season starts?

On going monitoring is part of the FFR regime
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Back to Top
One For The Ditch View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion


Joined: 13 Jul 2018
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 231 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote One For The Ditch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 07:17
I would suggest that the vast majority of clubs run by loyal volunteers, with little time on their hands, are more sustainable than the majority of premiership clubs. They, are “businesses” that have to comply with all associated regulations and fiscal obligations. I suggest, living within their means, not being reliant on a high net worth individual(s) is key to their success…..or am I missing something??
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 4433 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 20:43
Originally posted by One For The Ditch One For The Ditch wrote:

I would suggest that the vast majority of clubs run by loyal volunteers, with little time on their hands, are more sustainable than the majority of premiership clubs. They, are “businesses” that have to comply with all associated regulations and fiscal obligations. I suggest, living within their means, not being reliant on a high net worth individual(s) is key to their success…..or am I missing something??


I would add 'only paying affordable salaries to players'
RAID ON
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.