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Why do the RFU give clubs money? |
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Halliford
World Cup Winner Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4148 |
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... and probably your coaches as well!
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SK 88
World Cup Winner Joined: 08 Sep 2011 Location: Leicester Status: Offline Points: 576 |
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Blaming foreigners is a red herring.
There are something like 200 professional players playing regularly. The idea that there are secret gems in the 200 plus that would be world beaters if it weren't for those pesky foreigners coming here and improving our teams is just total nonsense. What we need is more foreigners to raise the standards (at all levels), this benefits all young players & benefits the national team the most. People focus on the kid who isn't good enough anyway not playing, not the one who IS good enough getting a tougher game, finding his weaknesses that he then improves on. Will Stuart or Joe Heyes battering some sub standard English loosehead doesn't help him when he comes up against Andrew Porter does it? If (when) a club gets a log jam in a position (of any nationality) they have to move on if they want more game time. That's life. Even when everyone in the chain is English the RFU can still contrive to see someone like Ben White lost to Scotland. He is now a wicked foreigner stealing English game time I guess (well not any more as he's gone to Toulon). There seems to be a fear & lack of confidence in English players that if we just took the reins off there wouldn't be enough players suddenly. I find this lack of faith totally bizarre. There are hardly any rugby playing nations & we are one of the top ones. There is no chance the league drops below 50% English regardless of anything we did. That's still 120 every single week & the national team only needs 23. If you have the England team as your priority then you should be in favour of having the quality as high as possible, so that whoever is needed in the 23 at any given weekend is proven week to week in a tough league that's challenged and exposed them to tough games. The current ring fenced league of friendlies often with squads bulked out by English teenagers to hit an arbitrary quota has helped no one.
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Oldman1
First XV regular Joined: 11 Sep 2019 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 61 |
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The whole issue of "non English" players needs a long and through review. For many years between about 1980 and 2010 my club in west London had an exchange programme with a similar sized club in Auckland NZ. Every mid August a couple of young Kiwi's would arrive at Heathrow, be picked up and joined the club. Jobs were found for them and a couple of rooms in a flat. Some were excellent players and made the first team, others added value in lower teams. I think without exception the added to the club. In return in the spring two of our youngsters set out for Auckland where a similar arrangement took place. Hopefully they added to the host club in a similar way.
Their airfares were paid for by the clubs VP's each contributing a small (I seem to remember £10 each one year) amount.
My main point. The crackdown on "material benefits stopped this. Rugby is more than a game it's a way of life. A good number of our "Kiwi" travellers remained involved in Rugby, some in the UK and at least one remaining in NZ. Society was all the better for experiencing another culture. |
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Paul10
World Cup Winner Joined: 24 Mar 2023 Location: Milton Keynes Status: Offline Points: 541 |
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One of the reasons for the now retired welsh generation was the strong foreign players in the regions.
Xavier Rush and Ben Blair in Cardiff (mentors to Warburton and Halfpenny) Regan King in Llanelli/ Scarlets Marshall, Holah, Tiatia, Collins, Bowe at Ospreys. I expect Newport had some too...
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tigerburnie
World Cup Winner Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 3639 |
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As an example a local lad in Leicester was playing for his local club, he went to the Tigers, he was a tight head prop, part of his training was being mentored by Martin Castrogiavani, another part was scrummaging against Marcos Ayerza. Now Dan Cole may well have risen to where he is anyway, but it would be churlish to say he did not gain something from the two who at that time were the best two in the world in their positions, yes Tigers gained, but so did England.
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Halliford
World Cup Winner Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4148 |
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Andre Esterhuizen came to Harlequins thinking his Springbok career was over and applied himself to the young tyro fly-half inside him. So now we see Marcus Smith playing for England and Esterhuizen back in the Springbok squad for the World Cup. Mentoring helps the mentor as well as the mentee!
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Richard Lowther
Coaching staff Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6528 |
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The recent examples seem to illustrate the benefits of established overseas internationals been involved in the game but how many of the overseas players in the top flight are, by most people's definitions, journeymen, and who are not been highlighted in this thread as providing long term benefits to the English game?
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Raider999
World Cup Winner Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Location: Crawley Status: Offline Points: 4432 |
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Quite agree - no problem with a limited number of good quality overseas players - what I object to is the number of journeyman overseas players in the Premiership. Far from learning from these players, young English talent ends up with little game time in the Premiership, instead being dual registered with Championship sides to keep them involved. Professional footballers need to have played a certain percentage of their country's full international matches to qualify. Time for a limit (4?) Of overseas players per club - after all there are numerous out of work players following the demise of Worcester, Wasps and Irish |
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RAID ON
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Count Ford
World Cup Winner Joined: 20 May 2017 Location: WA4 Status: Offline Points: 412 |
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4 years ago and with the same club set up England reached a world cup final. While the club set up in England is not exactly thriving I'm not sure all the issues can be laid at their door.
A major problem seems to be England are playing a type of game that is out of date and don't have a dominant forward pack to play the sort of game they are trying to do. Look at Ireland, France and Scotland when they attack. You have a sense of what they are trying to do, even when it doesn't come off. England's game plan is built around kicking and then applying pressure, but they are too undisciplined and the kicking not accurate enough for this to work. How many times do the likes of Watson, Arundel actually get the ball in space. A few times on Saturday someone made a great break, there was absolutely no support at all to continue the move. Lack of identity and lack of cohesion seems to be the biggest problem to me. Edited by Count Ford - 22 Aug 2023 at 12:56 |
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tigerburnie
World Cup Winner Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 3639 |
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I think we can say there are quite a few players that might fit the modern understanding of the word "journeyman", but I think the vast majority of them are English by birth. Incidentally a journeyman used to be a term for a skilled man who had more experience by having worked in more than just one environment, in engineering in the 1960's they used to get paid more than the rest of the workforce and were regarded as the most versatile.
Edited by tigerburnie - 22 Aug 2023 at 13:20 |
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11148 |
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Traditionally, medieval guilds had three grades Apprentices, who are learning the craft, and bound to a master. Journeymen, who were skilled craftsman working for a master, paid by the day.Masters, who had their own business and living from the profit and were full voting members of the guild. Journeymen could move between masters, and the German tradition was to move round the country, "wandergeselle". But the word s from the French journée. Apprentices were regularly banned from playing football - but the lure of the game was too much, so they kept paying.
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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SK 88
World Cup Winner Joined: 08 Sep 2011 Location: Leicester Status: Offline Points: 576 |
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Okay, what about Eli Snyman at Tigers who has been in pivotal in the development of two current England international locks? You couldn't classify him as anything other than a journeyman, but he acted as a brilliant stalking horse for the pair of them, meaning George Martin & Ollie Chessum had to both improve their basic skills and match his physicality to get game time. At the same time that raised the bottom level of skills in the game which made it a better standard for the opposition to play against & a sterner test for the English opposition. We need a total focus on quality of players. English players will reach the standards set. We need to set the standards high enough & focus on players skills and abilities not their passports.
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Steve@Mose
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2760 |
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Good old Eddie stirring the pot.
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Raider999
World Cup Winner Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Location: Crawley Status: Offline Points: 4432 |
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I wonder who is to blame for Australia's dire form?
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RAID ON
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corporalcarrot
World Cup Winner Joined: 22 Sep 2013 Location: St Brelade Status: Offline Points: 4724 |
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imo the quality of rugby in the Championship has been exceptional - the problem may be higher up the pyramid.
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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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tigerburnie
World Cup Winner Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 3639 |
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The problem is money, prem clubs fear going bankrupt if they get relegated, though history shows this is not true, terrified of losing sponsors and or fans, so this playing not to lose low risk rugby came to be. Jonah Lomu showed bigger was better, so the players all became gym monkeys, some stooping to taking steroids and we lose the skill and flair that the game used to have. Now we have backs who can ruck(sort of) and props who can pass and catch the ball(occasionally).
We now have this rugby league hybrid game with lineouts and occasionally proper scrums, oh and still 15 blokes and we daren't change anything because those nasty southern hemisphere lads will beat us..............oh hang on.............they already do.
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11148 |
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And of course Eddie was never in a position to raise the issue of the pathway.
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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tulip
World Cup Winner Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Location: W Yorks Status: Offline Points: 2167 |
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Well it’s always easy to blame the coaches. England did it with Stuart Lancaster,Andy Farrell,Mike Catt and Graham Rowntree and where are they now. The best coaches in Ireland the No1 team in the world. At the end of the day they have to have good players to work with So maybe the system is wrong and Eddie Jones is right. England got Ford and Farrell at schoolboy age from Rugby League but only because their dads were top Union coaches. Ireland get lots of Gaelic Football lads where kicking and catching is paramount. France smashed the Under20 World Cup so they have continuity Very similar to Tennis. Lots of money goes into it but very little return.
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islander
World Cup Winner Joined: 17 Mar 2010 Location: jersey Status: Offline Points: 7350 |
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It's all heading (even tho' there are several other permutations) towards a ENGvAUS Q-F, isn't it?! I can't bear it! Much as I have grave reservations about the English national team, losing to Eddie's new side would be especially tough to take...
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corporalcarrot
World Cup Winner Joined: 22 Sep 2013 Location: St Brelade Status: Offline Points: 4724 |
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Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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