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Why do the RFU give clubs money?

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Halliford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2023 at 17:22
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Tigers currently have ten players in the world cup alongside both first choice 9 and 10 injured, so the youngsters will be getting some game time. Even when England come home(which I think we all know might be quite early) the players still have to have rest periods, so we might get our first team back around Christmas time.

... and probably your coaches as well!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SK 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2023 at 21:55
Blaming foreigners is a red herring.

There are something like 200 professional players playing regularly.  The idea that there are secret gems in the 200 plus that would be world beaters if it weren't for those pesky foreigners coming here and improving our teams is just total nonsense.

What we need is more foreigners to raise the standards (at all levels), this benefits all young players & benefits the national team the most.  People focus on the kid who isn't good enough anyway not playing, not the one who IS good enough getting a tougher game, finding his weaknesses that he then improves on.  Will Stuart or Joe Heyes battering some sub standard English loosehead doesn't help him when he comes up against Andrew Porter does it?

If (when) a club gets a log jam in a position (of any nationality) they have to move on if they want more game time. That's life.  Even when everyone in the chain is English the RFU can still contrive to see someone like Ben White lost to Scotland. He is now a wicked foreigner stealing English game time I guess (well not any more as he's gone to Toulon).

There seems to be a fear & lack of confidence in English players that if we just took the reins off there wouldn't be enough players suddenly. I find this lack of faith totally bizarre. There are hardly any rugby playing nations & we are one of the top ones. There is no chance the league drops below 50% English regardless of anything we did. That's still 120 every single week & the national team only needs 23.

If you have the England team as your priority then you should be in favour of having the quality as high as possible, so that whoever is needed in the 23 at any given weekend is proven week to week in a tough league that's challenged and exposed them to tough games.  The current ring fenced league of friendlies often with squads bulked out by English teenagers to hit an arbitrary quota has helped no one. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldman1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2023 at 07:45
The whole issue of "non English" players needs a long and through review. For many years between about  1980 and 2010 my club in west London had an exchange programme with a similar sized club in Auckland NZ. Every mid August a couple of young Kiwi's would arrive at Heathrow, be picked up and joined the club. Jobs were found for them and  a couple of rooms in a flat. Some were excellent players and made the first team, others added value in lower teams. I think without exception the added to the club. In return in the spring two of our youngsters set out for Auckland where a similar arrangement took place. Hopefully they added to  the host club in a similar way.
Their airfares were paid for by the clubs VP's each contributing a small (I seem to remember £10 each one year) amount.
My main point. The crackdown on "material benefits stopped this. Rugby is more than a game it's a way of life. A good number of our "Kiwi" travellers remained involved in Rugby, some in the UK and at least one remaining in NZ. Society was all the better for experiencing another culture.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2023 at 08:54
One of the reasons for the now retired welsh generation was the strong foreign players in the regions.
Xavier Rush and Ben Blair in Cardiff (mentors to Warburton and Halfpenny)
Regan King in Llanelli/ Scarlets
Marshall, Holah, Tiatia, Collins, Bowe at Ospreys.
I expect Newport had some too...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2023 at 09:18
As an example a local lad in Leicester was playing for his local club, he went to the Tigers, he was a tight head prop, part of his training was being mentored by Martin Castrogiavani, another part was scrummaging against Marcos Ayerza. Now Dan Cole may well have risen to where he is anyway, but it would be churlish to say he did not gain something from the two who at that time were the best two in the world in their positions, yes Tigers gained, but so did England.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2023 at 10:42
Andre Esterhuizen came to Harlequins thinking his Springbok career was over and applied himself to the young tyro fly-half inside him. So now we see Marcus Smith playing for England and Esterhuizen back in the Springbok squad for the World Cup. Mentoring helps the mentor as well as the mentee!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2023 at 10:51
The recent examples seem to illustrate the benefits of established overseas internationals been involved in the game but how many of the overseas players in the top flight are, by most people's definitions, journeymen, and who are not been highlighted in this thread as providing long term benefits to the English game? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2023 at 11:24
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

The recent examples seem to illustrate the benefits of established overseas internationals been involved in the game but how many of the overseas players in the top flight are, by most people's definitions, journeymen, and who are not been highlighted in this thread as providing long term benefits to the English game? 


Quite agree - no problem with a limited number of good quality overseas players - what I object to is the number of journeyman overseas players in the Premiership.

Far from learning from these players, young English talent ends up with little game time in the Premiership, instead being dual registered with Championship sides to keep them involved.

Professional footballers need to have played a certain percentage of their country's full international matches to qualify.

Time for a limit (4?) Of overseas players per club - after all there are numerous out of work players following the demise of Worcester, Wasps and Irish
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2023 at 12:50
4 years ago and with the same club set up England reached a world cup final. While the club set up in England is not exactly thriving I'm not sure all the issues can be laid at their door.

A major problem seems to be England are playing a type of game that is out of date and don't have a dominant forward pack to play the sort of game they are trying to do.

Look at Ireland, France and Scotland when they attack. You have a sense of what they are trying to do, even when it doesn't come off. England's game plan is built around kicking and then applying pressure, but they are too undisciplined and the kicking not accurate enough for this to work.

How many times do the likes of Watson, Arundel actually get the ball in space.

A few times on Saturday someone made a great break, there was absolutely no support at all to continue the move. Lack of identity and lack of cohesion seems to be the biggest problem to me.




Edited by Count Ford - 22 Aug 2023 at 12:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2023 at 13:20
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

The recent examples seem to illustrate the benefits of established overseas internationals been involved in the game but how many of the overseas players in the top flight are, by most people's definitions, journeymen, and who are not been highlighted in this thread as providing long term benefits to the English game? 
I think we can say there are quite a few players that might fit the modern understanding of the word "journeyman", but I think the vast majority of them are English by birth.
Incidentally a journeyman used to be a term for a skilled man who had more experience by having worked in more than just one environment, in engineering in the 1960's they used to get paid more than the rest of the workforce and were regarded as the most versatile.


Edited by tigerburnie - 22 Aug 2023 at 13:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2023 at 13:53
Traditionally, medieval guilds had three grades

Apprentices, who are learning the craft, and bound to a master.
Journeymen, who were skilled craftsman working for a master, paid by the day.
Masters, who had their own business and living from the profit and were full voting members of the guild.

Journeymen could move between masters, and the German tradition was to move round the country, "wandergeselle". But the word s from the French journée.

Apprentices were regularly banned from playing football - but the lure of the game was too much, so they kept paying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SK 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2023 at 22:14
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

The recent examples seem to illustrate the benefits of established overseas internationals been involved in the game but how many of the overseas players in the top flight are, by most people's definitions, journeymen, and who are not been highlighted in this thread as providing long term benefits to the English game? 

Okay, what about Eli Snyman at Tigers who has been in pivotal in the development of two current England international locks?

You couldn't classify him as anything other than a journeyman, but he acted as a brilliant stalking horse for the pair of them, meaning George Martin & Ollie Chessum had to both improve their basic skills and match his physicality to get game time.

At the same time that raised the bottom level of skills in the game which made it a better standard for the opposition to play against & a sterner test for the English opposition. 

We need a total focus on quality of players.  English players will reach the standards set.  We need to set the standards high enough & focus on players skills and abilities not their passports. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 10:47
Good old Eddie stirring the pot.


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England's poor form is down to the RFU not producing enough quality players, says Australia head coach Eddie Jones.

England lost to Fiji for the first time last week - their third defeat in four before next week's World Cup in France.

Head coach Steve Borthwick has faced criticism, but former boss Jones says the blame lies elsewhere.

"The results of England over the last five years... they're not producing quality players," Jones told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"And so everyone looks at the head coach, and [says] 'let's blame the head coach'. But the onus on producing quality players is the RFU. And that hasn't happened.

"You've got to look at why you're not bringing talent through, then you've got to look at why your talent development systems are not doing that.

"The system's not right. What needs to change? Where's the gap? That's the responsibility of the RFU."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 11:10
I wonder who is to blame for Australia's dire form?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 11:25
imo the quality of rugby in the Championship has been exceptional - the problem may be higher up the pyramid.
Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 11:44
The problem is money, prem clubs fear going bankrupt if they get relegated, though history shows this is not true, terrified of losing sponsors and or fans, so this playing not to lose low risk rugby came to be. Jonah Lomu showed bigger was better, so the players all became gym monkeys, some stooping to taking steroids and we lose the skill and flair that the game used to have. Now we have backs who can ruck(sort of) and props who can pass and catch the ball(occasionally).
We now have this rugby league hybrid game with lineouts and occasionally proper scrums, oh and still 15 blokes and we daren't change anything because those nasty southern hemisphere lads will beat us..............oh hang on.............they already do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 13:10
And of course Eddie was never in a position to raise the issue of the pathway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 13:59
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

I wonder who is to blame for Australia's dire form?

Well it’s always easy to blame the coaches. England did it with Stuart Lancaster,Andy Farrell,Mike Catt and Graham Rowntree and where are they now. The best coaches in Ireland the No1 team in the world. 
At the end of the day they have to have good players to work with  So maybe the system is wrong and Eddie Jones is right. England got Ford and Farrell at schoolboy age from Rugby League but only because their dads were top Union coaches. Ireland get lots of Gaelic Football lads where kicking and catching is paramount. France smashed the Under20 World Cup so they have continuity
Very similar to Tennis. Lots of money goes into it but very little return. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 14:23
It's all heading (even tho' there are several other permutations) towards a ENGvAUS Q-F, isn't it?! I can't bear it! Much as I have grave reservations about the English national team, losing to Eddie's new side would be especially tough to take...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2023 at 15:04
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

It's all heading (even tho' there are several other permutations) towards a ENGvAUS Q-F, isn't it?! I can't bear it! Much as I have grave reservations about the English national team, losing to Eddie's new side would be especially tough to take...
If you are right mate England might win that and make the semi-finals - the RFU would take that as a sign that everything is working fine and give everyone involved a bonus.
Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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