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Premiership II plans announced
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cheshire exile View Drop Down
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Points: 2455 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheshire exile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2024 at 09:16
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

A 14 team league, plus the Premiership Cup, would fill a season - especially if it runs into May.

It would also give four pools of six in the cup - which we assume would be in the Autumn International window and during the six nations.

So 31 games, plus potentiallly two knock out games.

While the Premiership would have 25 games plus whatever European games, this year it was four.

With a 14 team league is there any need for a Cup competition? This season’s cup was a reflection of a World Cup year.
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If you have a season from September to end of May, that is 39 weeks.
26 games leaves a lot of blank weeks.
And the championship likes to have games over Christmas and potentially Easter - which National leagues avoid.
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Points: 1867 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2024 at 09:36
Originally posted by cheshire exile cheshire exile wrote:

Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

Originally posted by Greg Greg wrote:

Who, on this forum, really knows what was said and discussed at last Thursday's meeting? 
Unless somebody was actually there, it's all conjecture.


I’ve spoken to someone who was there …. I can assure the number of the clubs in The Championship was discussed ….

Were Rams represented and were other National  One clubs present. 

It was a meeting of Championship clubs.

I understand that the RFU recently visited clubs showing a willingness to enter the Championship ( Redingensians / Rams being one ) They have accepted the terms laid out by the RFU and rejected by all of the Championship clubs.
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Points: 59 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Breakdown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2024 at 10:52
Originally posted by cheshire exile cheshire exile wrote:

Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

Originally posted by Greg Greg wrote:

Who, on this forum, really knows what was said and discussed at last Thursday's meeting? 
Unless somebody was actually there, it's all conjecture.


I’ve spoken to someone who was there …. I can assure the number of the clubs in The Championship was discussed ….

Were Rams represented and were other National  One clubs present. 

It was a meeting of Championship clubs.

I understand there was an NCA representative at the meeting and they were associated with Rams. But I think this was coincidental to Rams having expressed interest in "P2" - other NCA clubs returned their forms of expression of interest. One club chairman told me their board decided to do so because they were worried they might miss out if they didn't, but that it was in no way an endorsement of the idea. I imagine other clubs thought exactly the same. Clearly, some clubs are thinking about the wider implications of a selective, franchise-based league that is controlled by PRL and others are thinking about their own ambitions. Both positions are valid. 
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No doubt these clubs thinking of buying their way into this new league will want it ring fenced to protect their position, you know those clubs who wanted ring fencing abolished, stinks more than a pile of horse peanute.
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Points: 1867 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2024 at 12:24
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

No doubt these clubs thinking of buying their way into this new league will want it ring fenced to protect their position, you know those clubs who wanted ring fencing abolished, stinks more than a pile of horse peanute.

I read an article in last week's Rugby Paper about the influence of CVC who have 27 %  of the Premiership and who are advocates for ringfencing. They have the financial to have stepped in and saved the ' brand' clubs if they had the appetite and wanted to.


Edited by No 7 - 13 Feb 2024 at 12:35
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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At the weekend I caught up with someone who was at the meeting. He intimated to me that the focus of the meeting was principally about governance and the question about representation from the Championship at the PRL table. In the brief chat I had about the subject there did not appear to be any discussion about the number of teams in Premiership 2 or if there was it must have been so fleeting so as not to be worthy of comment by my friend.

My take away from the conversation was that nothing was going to be considered by the Championship clubs until the governance issue was sorted.

Perhaps the governance of the RFU should be sorted as well before anything else is considered.


Edited by Big Eddie - 13 Feb 2024 at 12:53
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Clive Norling View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

At the weekend I caught up with someone who was at the meeting. He intimated to me that the focus of the meeting was principally about governance and the question about representation from the Championship at the PRL table. In the brief chat I had about the subject there did not appear to be any discussion about the number of teams in Premiership 2 or if there was it must have been so fleeting so as not to be worthy of comment by my friend.

My take away from the conversation was that nothing was going to be considered by the Championship clubs until the governance issue was sorted.

Perhaps the governance of the RFU should be sorted as well before anything else is considered.


As already commented on, there was a hell of a lot of talking about governance BUT the RFU (or CoS and BS) want 14 clubs from 2025/26 season, or maybe my source misunderstood … it was also clear they want more English qualified YOUNG players getting game time …. I would suggest there is a lot of “disinformation” being leaked (probably by both sides) to enhance their bargaining position ….. politics, the one thing I hate in sport!
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Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

At the weekend I caught up with someone who was at the meeting. He intimated to me that the focus of the meeting was principally about governance and the question about representation from the Championship at the PRL table. In the brief chat I had about the subject there did not appear to be any discussion about the number of teams in Premiership 2 or if there was it must have been so fleeting so as not to be worthy of comment by my friend.

My take away from the conversation was that nothing was going to be considered by the Championship clubs until the governance issue was sorted.

Perhaps the governance of the RFU should be sorted as well before anything else is considered.


As already commented on, there was a hell of a lot of talking about governance BUT the RFU (or CoS and BS) want 14 clubs from 2025/26 season, or maybe my source misunderstood … it was also clear they want more English qualified YOUNG players getting game time …. I would suggest there is a lot of “disinformation” being leaked (probably by both sides) to enhance their bargaining position ….. politics, the one thing I hate in sport!

Yes, I don't think there is any dispute on this 14 number and it makes sense. If you go back to the first post on this very long thread, you will see that I said at the outset that Sweeney wanted 14 clubs. 

And yes, there has been a lot of disinformation, but I have been following it closely and I don't think that the Championship has been spreading disinformation. Its position has been clear at least from the time Simon Halliday became chairman: this is a league that is working together and wants to manage its own destiny (and that means the league not the clubs, who will be a changing cast list) and in particular be independent of PRL. There has been a lot of evidence that the Prem clubs - or at least some of them - want "Prem 2" to be a feeder league where they can drop in young players who they can't give game time to. 

PRL are also desperate to ring fence the Premiership and probably Prem 2 as well  (because it isn't possible to have a feeder league where the membership changes from season to season and you can't have your farm clubs disappearing into the Nationals or, heaven forbid, getting promoted into your own league.

So the Championship clubs have repeatedly said they want promotion and relegation, they want any minimum operating standards to be agreed and not be an effective ring fence to block promotion and they want a sensible and independent approach to the "player development pathway" i.e. game-time for young guns

They also want any league to be properly and fairly funded so the game can expand its appeal and each club can serve their local community. If that is disinformation, I am not sure how you define disinformation.

On the other hand, there is the RFU...  And it seems to me that if there is one lesson to be drawn from reading this forum, it is that when you have dealings with the RFU, it is a case of caveat emptor.
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Halliford View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Breakdown Breakdown wrote:

I understand there was an NCA representative at the meeting and they were associated with Rams. But I think this was coincidental to Rams having expressed interest in "P2" - other NCA clubs returned their forms of expression of interest. One club chairman told me their board decided to do so because they were worried they might miss out if they didn't, but that it was in no way an endorsement of the idea. I imagine other clubs thought exactly the same. Clearly, some clubs are thinking about the wider implications of a selective, franchise-based league that is controlled by PRL and others are thinking about their own ambitions. Both positions are valid. 

We returned the requested forms, even though the MOS section was then officially in draft. Our view was that there was no harm in doing it and actually using the MOS as a target for strategic development was helpful. We don't have the financial clout to step up to Level 2 now or in the foreseeable future but we also recognise that there will be MOS introduced to Levels 3 and 4 as time goes on. 

My understanding of the governance issue is that the RFU wants the new Tier 2 to be an RFU League, as are Levels 3 and 4, and does not want that League to be controlled either by PRL or by an entity called The Championship or whatever. It has been suggested that Tier 2 come under the aegis of National League Rugby but I understand the current Championship Clubs have circled their wagons and want their own body - a mini PRL.
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When the game went pro the clubs asked the RFU to run the game and they said no, now they want to try and get their hands on it, however I doubt they can buy CVC out, so after a lot of hot air, I doubt very little will actually change, just playing around the edges. The RFU have thrown away a chance to make the game grow in England, the reason it has failed is solely their failure, failed to grow interest when England were World Champions and have sat on their collective backsides ever since.
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Tim Hague - the Cambridge Chairman - sent this out as part of his weekly mailing to members.


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Off the field, Rob Dean [Club president] and I were at Twickenham last week for a meeting with most of the RFU board and senior figures and investors from other Championship Clubs ; it's fair to say that there have been some public disagreements over the future and direction of the second Tier of English Rugby , and this meeting was suggested (by us, and others) as a way of breaking the logjam. For me, it was a positive meeting, with more points of agreement than differences, and a timetable was laid out (concluding end March) for resolving the issues around governance, funding, minimum operating standards, and player development/welfare. The area that was looking tricky for us - and most other clubs-  operating standards, is much less of a concern than say a month ago, and I feel as a club we should be able to step up over the likely time period for meeting these - we will need to find some funding over 3 to 4 years, but that was always going to be the case in our plans to improve infrastructure and facilities. So, I'm optimistic, but will keep everyone informed as we go along.
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Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Tim Hague - the Cambridge Chairman - sent this out as part of his weekly mailing to members.


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Off the field, Rob Dean [Club president] and I were at Twickenham last week for a meeting with most of the RFU board and senior figures and investors from other Championship Clubs ; it's fair to say that there have been some public disagreements over the future and direction of the second Tier of English Rugby , and this meeting was suggested (by us, and others) as a way of breaking the logjam. For me, it was a positive meeting, with more points of agreement than differences, and a timetable was laid out (concluding end March) for resolving the issues around governance, funding, minimum operating standards, and player development/welfare. The area that was looking tricky for us - and most other clubs-  operating standards, is much less of a concern than say a month ago, and I feel as a club we should be able to step up over the likely time period for meeting these - we will need to find some funding over 3 to 4 years, but that was always going to be the case in our plans to improve infrastructure and facilities. So, I'm optimistic, but will keep everyone informed as we go along.


I am jealous of this level of transparency.
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We also got a message from our director saying the RFU have circulated draft proposals, we have provisionally expressed interest and the club's board will review the final proposals. As I've said on my own club's message board, it makes sense to at least hear what the offer is. 

Most fans I speak to at games from my own and other clubs love National 1, but if there are spaces to be had in a Prem 2, surely it's better to promote teams from Nat 1 than parachute in Wasps, Wuss and Irish.
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Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

I was told on Saturday that the current chat was 3 up from N1 and no relegation from N1


Hope they keep their hands off the National League. That's where i shall be spending my money next season. I've had enough of the Prem /championship nonsense.
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Originally posted by Abbotsman Abbotsman wrote:

Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

I was told on Saturday that the current chat was 3 up from N1 and no relegation from N1


Hope they keep their hands off the National League. That's where i shall be spending my money next season. I've had enough of the Prem /championship nonsense.


Post of the day/week/month etc. Well said!
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We've not heard much about Worcester recently... until today.
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And still there is this belief that they have this god given right to have a place in the Championship just because they are Worcester Warrior unbelievable!

I would be happy for their supporters if the club started off at the bottom of the leagues, as other clubs have had to do, and earned their way back to the top tables, be that the National Leagues, Championship or Premiership.
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Originally posted by castleparknight castleparknight wrote:

And still there is this belief that they have this god given right to have a place in the Championship just because they are Worcester Warrior unbelievable!

I would be happy for their supporters if the club started off at the bottom of the leagues, as other clubs have had to do, and earned their way back to the top tables, be that the National Leagues, Championship or Premiership.

I think that is being a little unfair. I didn't read that as them thinking they had a god given right more that they were happy to take advantage of the situation should it arise. I think the term god given right applies more to Wasps from what I have read.

Having said that I do agree any newly formed club should start at the bottom assuming they don't want to go back and be part of the original "amateur" Worcester RFC.  
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Some think they can buy there way in from Nat1 it seems, just a bad as Wuss, Wasps or anyone else who does not achieve their merit on the field of play
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