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Premiership II plans announced |
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Halliford
World Cup Winner Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4148 |
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What is not mentioned is paying creditors. Have Wuss paid their rugby creditors yet?
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No 7
World Cup Winner Joined: 10 Oct 2011 Location: LONDON Status: Offline Points: 1866 |
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They owe in excess of thirty million. London Irish owe the same and Wasps 95 million !
Edited by No 7 - 14 Feb 2024 at 18:39 |
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Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Thatbloke
World Cup Winner Joined: 02 Sep 2017 Location: Newport Status: Offline Points: 1717 |
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Think we can take that as a No - and probably no intention of doing so!
Shouldn't even be up for discussion them coming back into the top levels of rugby - Brand or No Brand!
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Raider999
World Cup Winner Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Location: Crawley Status: Offline Points: 4430 |
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Quite agree - also as a brand they are Failed Brands |
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RAID ON
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*Stalwart
World Cup Winner Joined: 15 Oct 2022 Location: Penzance Status: Offline Points: 305 |
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Those levels of debt are eye-watering. It's not a victimless scenario - a lot of people and businesses are owed a lot of money and it may well have put some of them out of business. To suddenly parachute these "brands" back into the Championship would be obscene. As others have said they need to pay back as much of those debts as is possible, then start again at the lowest level and rebuild from there.
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*Stalwart
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Clive Norling
World Cup Winner Joined: 06 Mar 2018 Location: Reading Status: Offline Points: 348 |
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Interesting analogy ... so clubs who run their companies professionally and with minimal losses at Level 3, you bracket with 3 x Level 1 clubs who have combined losses of over £150 million pounds ... I think that is a tad harsh if I'm being honest ... since it is clear that Wasps, Worcester & London Irish had business plans that appear to have been pulled together on the back of a cigarette packet .... |
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Wobbler
First XV regular Joined: 07 Feb 2014 Location: Clubhouse Status: Offline Points: 97 |
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Who are you referring to?
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moseleyfans.wix.com/moseleyfans
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FHLH
World Cup Winner Cambridge Joined: 19 Apr 2009 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 5252 |
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I read the article with incredulity. There's no expression of sorrow or regret but an assumption of a place in the Championship However, we must remember that the article is on a supporters' message board so is likely to be written with hope and optimism whilst wearing rose tinted spectacles.
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Halliford
World Cup Winner Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4148 |
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The key element is the rugby creditors. If the RFU apply their rules, and Conor O’Shea has said they will, none of those 3 Clubs will be allowed to join any League without clearing them. Non-rugby creditors will have no comeback, just as many businesses fail in the UK and under our corporate laws can return to the same business under a different structure leaving unpaid creditors behind them.
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JAB87
Academy player Joined: 19 Jan 2024 Location: Coventry Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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The three failed Premiership clubs did not “return” for the 23-24 season and in my view have therefore forfeited any rights to a place in Tier 2. All the clubs have the opportunity to rebuild on a sustainable basis from the bottom of the pyramid.
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FHLH
World Cup Winner Cambridge Joined: 19 Apr 2009 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 5252 |
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This is the bit that leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. It's as if the clubs in liquidation are of any importance, which they are not. It's the unsecured creditors who are the ones to suffer, usually small businesses. But don't forget that in a relatively recent change, HMRC are no longer Preferential Creditors which means that we, as taxpayers are underwriting the failure of the clubs to manage their finances. The concept of rugby creditors is a pompous piece of regulation that effectively circumvents insolvency legislation. It's all a bit jolly hockey sticks" and cigars and brandy in boardrooms. I'm only bitter because I have suffered as an unsecured creditor and it still give me sleepless nights after 40 years. Edited by FHLH - 15 Feb 2024 at 11:19 |
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Clive Norling
World Cup Winner Joined: 06 Mar 2018 Location: Reading Status: Offline Points: 348 |
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What is the definition of a “rugby creditor” please? If you’re trading as a rugby club, technically everyone you owe money to is a “rugby creditor” surely? |
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Halliford
World Cup Winner Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4148 |
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The following is taken from RFU Regulation 5: “Primary Rugby Creditors” means players, ex-players, coaches, medics, physiotherapists, strength and conditioning coaches and any other worker of a Club who are on the payroll of the Club at the time an Insolvency Event occurs. “Secondary Rugby Creditors” means ex-players, any other employee or worker of a Club who is not on the payroll of the Club at the time the Insolvency event occurs, referees, Registered Agents, other rugby clubs or rugby bodies in England or elsewhere, the RFU and any RFU subsidiary or associated undertaking, any Constituent Body and any other person or entity paid directly and exclusively by the Club and who directly supports the ability of that Club to play rugby. For the purposes of this definition, any shareholder with a holding of 10% or more of the Club, or any Director shall not be treated as a Primary Rugby Creditor or a Secondary Rugby Creditor.
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Halliford
World Cup Winner Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4148 |
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The following section from Regulation 5 covers what is needed from any Club which has become insolvent: In addition to the imposition of special measures detailed in regulation 5.5.13 to 5.5.23 above and the requirements set out in Appendix 1 to this Regulation 5, the Phoenix Entity will be required to satisfy the following: (a) The Phoenix Entity must pay all outstanding Primary Rugby Creditors monies owed up to the date on which the Insolvency Event occurred, net of the amount that such Primary Rugby Creditors are entitled to (for example if receiving a payment from the Redundancy Payments Office) within 28 days of being granted a licence to play in one of the RFU’s Leagues. (b) Subject to Regulation 5.7.3(c), the Phoenix Entity must pay, reach agreement to settle and/or reach agreement to defer any sums owing up to the date on which the Insolvency Event occurred in full or in part (in all such cases providing evidence to the RFU of such agreement in each individual case) all Secondary Rugby Creditors within 28 days of being granted a license to play in one of the RFU’s Leagues. (c) To the extent any Secondary Rugby Creditors are disputed by the Phoenix Entity, such dispute together with supporting evidence shall be submitted to the RFU within 28 days of being granted a license to play in one of the RFU’s leagues. The RFU, or any person or organisation appointed by the RFU for such purpose, will determine whether such creditor is a legitimate creditor and falls within the definition of Secondary Rugby Creditor and will notify its decision to the Phoenix Entity. If the RFU decides in its discretion that the disputed Secondary Rugby Creditor should be paid pursuant to these Regulations, the Phoenix Entity must pay such Secondary Rugby Creditor within 28 days of notification of the RFU’s decision to the Phoenix Entity; (d) The Phoenix Entity must provide a bond to the RFU to guarantee its obligations to the RFU. This bond must be deposited in cash with the RFU and the RFU will hold it for a period of three years from the start of the following Season. The RFU is entitled to use the bond to fulfil any obligations of the existing club or the Phoenix Entity as set out in the agreement to be entered into with the RFU and to meet any liabilities that the RFU reasonably believes should be paid in order to help safeguard the future existence for the club or to compensate any party in the case of any default of the Phoenix Entity. The bond will be the greater of the total amount of any Primary Rugby Creditors and Secondary Rugby Creditors as at the date of the issuing of the license to the Phoenix Entity to assume the position of the insolvent Club in the relevant League or 10% of the average projected annual turnover for the Phoenix Entity as set out for its first two years of trading in its business plan, or such other amount as determined by the RFU having regard to the particular circumstances in each case;
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Paul10
World Cup Winner Joined: 24 Mar 2023 Location: Milton Keynes Status: Offline Points: 540 |
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I thought it was creditors with odd shaped balls.
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No 7
World Cup Winner Joined: 10 Oct 2011 Location: LONDON Status: Offline Points: 1866 |
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On those terms above Wasps, Worcester and London Irish will never return.
Edited by No 7 - 15 Feb 2024 at 13:45 |
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Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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neyland22
Mini and Juniors Joined: 05 Apr 2023 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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They won’t be missed
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tulip
World Cup Winner Joined: 12 Mar 2012 Location: W Yorks Status: Offline Points: 2167 |
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The term “Rugby Creditors” worries me All money owed by a rugby club should be rugby creditors. Why should the pork pie supplier miss out because his business is not rugby related
Edited by tulip - 16 Feb 2024 at 09:15 |
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Halliford
World Cup Winner Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4148 |
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Because UK Insolvency regulations allow it! Companies can become insolvent, go into administration and restructure themselves leaving behind unsecured creditors. I think it is a major weakness of insolvency law but it is an argument that I can't win with entrepreneurs who say that they have to take a risk to succeed and if at first you don't succeed try, try and try again.
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WEvans
World Cup Winner Joined: 08 Dec 2016 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 1369 |
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I really can't see any assumption of a place in the Championship. Optimism yes but no assumption. You are quite right of course that is the supporters speaking and that's the key point. They aren't the ones who should be offering sorrow and regret as they had little to do with the behaviour of their previous owners. In actual fact they were very much against them and were expressing severe concerns about their business plan (or lack of one) almost as soon as they took control.
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