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Sell all the RFU's assets to the highest bidder |
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Berksrugby
First XV squad Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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In the interests of not sending other posters to sleep WEvans, I'll keep this very brief. In order to find and offer solutions to a problem, there must first be an identifiable problem, which in the case of the week to week running of the actual community game, there is not. That is the way of the world we live in and that is the way of those of sound mind. By virtue of this, that is what is covered in points 1), 2) and 4).
Edited by Berksrugby - 11 Jan 2024 at 15:45 |
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5029 |
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Paul10, There would be a helluva lot of detail to delve through and understand with the debenture holders being just one part and probably one of the easiest parts. Debenture holders are providers of debt to the RFU and a sale of the RFU would almost certainly preserve their position. However, as you say this is a debate. My intention in pushing out such a radical idea was to stimulate debate and to draw to the attention of English Club rugby as a whole that they are being disenfranchised by an unelected Executive Management and board of the RFU Based upon the RFU's reported 2023 profit before rugby investment of £103m and adding back depreciation of £19m arrives at an EBITDA (Earnings before Interest, Tax, Depreciation and Amortisation) number of £122m, I expect a business generating these type of returns to be worth a multiple of between 8 to 10 times and possibly a much higher multiple. Giving a conservative value range of some £976 million to £1.22billion for the RFU and it could be a far higher value particularly if the RFU was better managed. 99.9% of this huge value belongs to the Community Clubs.....at present they are getting very,very little of such value and my fear is that with the current direction of travel by the Executive Management they will in future get absolutely none of this value which may continue to be stealthily appropriated by the Professional Game and its private equity partners CVC. Do I think this will really happen ?.......I certainly do because the game is so divided and the Executive Management of the RFU is so all powerful and unaccountable as to make this invisible takeover for numpence almost the perfect scenario for a private equity player like CVC
Edited by Big Eddie - 11 Jan 2024 at 12:52 |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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WEvans
World Cup Winner Joined: 08 Dec 2016 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 1381 |
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I have studied your reply and see no answer to my question. Just more insults.
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Paul10
World Cup Winner Joined: 24 Mar 2023 Location: Milton Keynes Status: Offline Points: 556 |
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I'm all for creative thinking but remain very sceptical of this proposal. RFU is a mutual not a company. What happens to debenture holders?
However it's a debate. I am a member of a community club. I go to Saints games every other month and Bedford every other year. Haven't been to an international since 2015.
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5029 |
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Thank you Runitback. This section of Rolling Maul is here to debate issues that are not about the playing of the game. I believe that the lack of governance of the RFU and the current direction of travel by an unelected and unaccountable Executive Management and board is a matter of upmost concern. I have highlighted a radical but logical alternative which hopefully will make rugby supporters in the Community Game think about is happening to their sport
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Nat1
First XV squad Joined: 31 Dec 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 53 |
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Well said Greg. Having read through the reams of back and forth above, it might be time for everyone to move on. For what it's worth - probably not much! - I actually find myself agreeing with Berksrugby. Selling Twickenham? Forcibly removing the RFU? Really? That all has a whiff of rabble rousing about it, maybe a march on Downing St or the DCMS next? The fans and volunteers I see every week are happy with their rugby, why start meddling. After all, and as the late, great, Doris Day said 'Que sera sera'.
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Runitback
World Cup Winner Joined: 22 Sep 2014 Location: North Status: Offline Points: 1211 |
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Big Eddie . . . I totally agree with your plan
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Run with it
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Greg
First XV regular Joined: 30 Jan 2020 Location: Norfolk Status: Offline Points: 110 |
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This is all getting rather 'unecessary'. Let's move on and all play nicely together.
That the game of Rugby Union in this country (and others, incidentally) is at a crossroads is not in any doubt. What is not clear to anybody (it would seem) is the best way forward. |
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5029 |
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Dear Berksrugby, Thank you for the enhanced moniker, as a Liverpool supporter it works rather well and I appreciate your response. I have set out my responses in red under the points you have raised.
Edited by Big Eddie - 10 Jan 2024 at 19:02 |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Berksrugby
First XV squad Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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WEvans, Please refer to points 1), 2) and 4) in my longer post above for an answer to your question. No insult intended, but clearly there are some thin-skinned rugby folk out there on this forum.
Edited by Berksrugby - 10 Jan 2024 at 18:31 |
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Berksrugby
First XV squad Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Big 'Red' Eddie,
In the interests of this thread not becoming your own personal monologue, rant, misplaced sales pitch, witch hunt or whatever else you care to call it, all devoid of rational discussion for the here and now, I have penned a response to your confused ramblings following what you deemed to be a 'derisory snort' from myself. 1) Toughen up. In the 50+ years I have been following rugby, I have come to expect and enjoy the company of those who can handle a difference of opinion without throwing their toys out the pram or crying into their pillow if someone disagrees with them. Leave the Snowflakes to follow other sports with different shaped balls. 2) When I see or hear someone (online or in the flesh) attempting to stir up an idea, ideology, revolution so far detached from reality and (in this case) what the ordinary player/fan enjoys and is content with on their Saturday afternoon, I have always stood up and challenged said propaganda. Who do you think you are talking on behalf of, aside from 6 or 7 semi pro Championship clubs? 3) Please stop referring to the Championship as 'Community rugby'. It is simply not the case. Whilst some of the clubs trying to keep their head afloat in the Championship may once have been true community clubs, those days are gone. Community rugby starts at National 1 and below, as evidenced by the tackle height law changes not affecting the top 2 tiers, which are exempt. Any league that houses fully pro sides like ET, Donny etc, can't be considered to be playing Community rugby. 4) I have had sight of the '3 polls' you created in a thinly veiled attempt to service your own agenda as a supporter of a club set to miss out when Premiership 2 is borne and semi pro clubs are removed. Quite frankly, they make laughable reading. The number of responses (or distinct lack of) should be all the evidence that you need to finally realise that, not only are you fighting a losing battle, but in all truth, no battle at all. It is viewed as a non-issue by the considerable masses that play and support rugby in this country. Several posters have pointed this out to you in different ways, yet you don't seem to be getting the message. To paraphrase, I think it was Einstein that coined the phrase about madness being the preserve of those who do the same thing again and again, expecting a different result. You would do well to take heed of this. 5) I am not a numbers man, of that I freely admit. You can examine the RFU administrative documents all you like with your background in finances, and then highlight the fine grain detail that fits your agenda to try and justify your discontent and coup d'etat against the RFU; but when all is said and done, it won't make a blind bit of difference. In 6 -12 months time, tell me I'm wrong. There is nothing more I can add, other than to wish you well, in the hope that you can move on from this slightly unhealthy preoccupation of fighting a battle that isn't there to be fought, and to be at peace with yourself.
Edited by Berksrugby - 10 Jan 2024 at 18:10 |
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5029 |
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In my view the Community Clubs in English Rugby are sleep walking to a disaster that will see Private Equity (CVC) with the help of the Executive Management of the RFU (AKA as King Billy and his courtiers) controlling English rugby and all of the RFU's resources.
CVC did not get into Rugby to be a bit player, effective control is what they want and with King Billy at the helm of the RFU, and a supine RFU board and RFU Council, they will get what they want without even putting their hand in their pocket to buy out rights of the Community Clubs . While CVC and King Billy plot their course the Community Clubs watch with disinterest. The RFU with its undemocratic Rules and King Billy at the helm is almost the perfect vehicle to control. They can ignore the membership because they never find common cause and even if the Championship Clubs kick up a stink what can they actually do about it?
Edited by Big Eddie - 10 Jan 2024 at 16:57 |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5029 |
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Berksrugby, My answer to your derisory snort is in red below.
Why is it madness? I can give you plenty of examples where large corporate entities have undertaken a transaction/demerger/Management buyout etc to resolve a fundamental shareholder issue. This is one of these cases. The Community Game gets very little from the RFU. The whole structure of the RFU is devoted to satisfying the needs of the Professional and the Elite Game and of course keeping King Billy and his acolytes in hugely well remunerated employment. In any reasonable corporate entity there would be way more accountability and democracy. The Rules of the RFU are shockingly undemocratic and enable an unelected Executive Management and board to act without oversight to the huge detriment of the Community Game. Berksrugby, if you can show me how and where there is any effective oversight of King Billy and his courtiers I will be happy to engage with you on this point. However I do not believe you will be able to as I have read the Rules of the RFU and it is clear to me that the RFU Council has absolutely no teeth whatsoever! King Billy can reign with impunity.......
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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WEvans
World Cup Winner Joined: 08 Dec 2016 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 1381 |
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Perhaps instead of criticising and insulting others you could offer your solution to the problem?
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5029 |
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Camquin, Please see my replies to your points in red below Kind Regards Big Eddie
Edited by Big Eddie - 10 Jan 2024 at 11:35 |
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11158 |
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The problem is that without the TV contract for internationals, there is no income. IF you split the sport, the professional game will take all of that. And the game does need some administration. As do all the things that the RFU is not currently doing, like marketing and increasing the number of RDOs, etc. So we need to spend at least £50m a year on club rugby. And even if all the clubs gave up their share to a new community rugby union - the capital could not generate that sort of money. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5029 |
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Berksrugby, Your arguments do not stand up to scrutiny when you compare it to the status quo: 1. The Community game is currently dying on its feet as many 'sides' fold for lack of numbers. How many clubs now run 4 senior sides as used to be the case 20 or so years ago. I don't know of many in the North West and I expect it to be the same across the country 2. Currently an unelected RFU board led by an unelected King Billy direct virtually all of the RFU's resources (which are effectively owned by the 2,000 rugby clubs throughout England) to a very tiny majority (about 0.05%) 3. You rubbish the character of progressive club Chairmen, Treasurers and Presidents painting them as charlatans who will waste the resources provided to their clubs by the dissolution of the RFU. How patronising. The Community game is withering on the vine and is being starved of investment by King Billy and his courtiers. Far better to distribute the resources fairly and proportionately whilst there are still resources available and let the Community game reset itself under new leadership solely focussed on the Community game 4. I believe in the right of the clubs to democratically decide how to utilise the RFU's resources rather than let King Billy and his unelected board direct all of the RFU's resources towards the elite game and just 10 clubs For those who say how outrageous to suggest selling off the family silver, you are mistaken. The family silver is producing no return for the circa 2,000 Community clubs. The returns are going to the elite game and the Premiership and to pay King Billy's salary. Let CVC buy Twickenham and the rest of the RFU's assets (If they are the highest bidder) and return the proceeds to the 99.9% of shareholders being the Community clubs. Twickenham and its returns can then provide for the Elite game and the Premiership and the Community Game can provide for itself. Is this a more outrageous idea then letting King Billy and his unelected courtiers reign over the dissolution of English Club rugby by stealth?
Edited by Big Eddie - 10 Jan 2024 at 09:37 |
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Robb
World Cup Winner Joined: 24 Jan 2017 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 1492 |
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We need to get rid of the caretakers, not sell off the family silver!
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Berksrugby
First XV squad Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Interesting and well thought out idea?! It is madness, pure and simple.
Have you taken leave of your senses rugbychris? Then again, who isn't partial to a free handout now and then. |
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rugbychris
First XV regular Joined: 02 May 2019 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 141 |
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Very interesting and well thought out idea Big Eddie. Perhaps clubs could receive a portion of their money each season and it is ringfenced for game development?
Berksrugby seems to encapsulate the thinking at HQ. Let the thousands of volunteers at the lower levels of the game work tirelessly to promote, manage and develop the game throughout the country but be sure to keep them in their box because a little funding will mean the egotistical, inept and over ambitious clubman from the low reaches of the game will destroy rugby as we know it. P.S. please keep on buying tickets to Twickenham though
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