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League Structure 24/25??
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FHLH View Drop Down
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Cambridge

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    Posted: 11 Nov 2023 at 17:20
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:


P.S. What has happened at Sale? Would they currently beat Leeds / Rotherham / Wharfedale? Or would Sharks ride in as White Knights?

They'll beat Rams instead ............ Tongue
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No, it is a belief that leagues work.

A league with sides 1-14 is going to have a higher standard overall than one with teams 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28.

Which is not to say the teams in National 2 are not playing good rugby. Or that teams can improve, or regress, over time. As I say, I believe leagues work, which is why I oppose ringfencing.
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Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

.........there is talk of splitting National 1, which would reduce the playing standard.

We're both from Cambridge yet have slightly differing views

Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:


......... splitting National 1 may increase playing standard


There so many factors that feed into this discussion. Relative disparity in funding, travelling distance, squad sizes, non EQP players in National leagues, overall salary cap, match day attendances etc., relationships with Premiership academies, funding Mini & Youth for the eventual benefit of the game

There's a theme - money.

Until there's a fair and equitable way of resolving finance then there will always be a disparity between clubs.

P.S. What has happened at Sale? Would they currently beat Leeds / Rotherham / Wharfedale? Or would Sharks ride in as White Knights?


Edited by FHLH - 11 Nov 2023 at 12:31
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I think you mis-judge other teams and frankly insult them. Are Dorking, Leeds, Rotherham, Luctonians or Clifton so bad? Sure stepping up is tough, but do all promoted sides weaken a league, do Cambridge weaken the Championship? Sides can lose form/players, are Worthing weakening the league? Talk of the Nat2 West being a weaker league, look at the sides in it Cambourne, Redruth, Exeter Uni, Dings all proud clubs who many have been in the running for promotion in the past. Denying clubs a chance is just the same as ring fencing the Premiership, having two Nat1  leagues will most likely increase the standard not weaken it.
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I think the lower leagues, and especially the cup, need a rethink.
The dichotomy between quality and travel is always the hard decision.

I suspect "the powers that be" will want a smaller Championship, and will want to find a way to bring Wasps, and possibly Worcester and Irish back as franchises. So somewhere between four and six of the semi-pro Championship sides may find themselves relegated to National 1.

This would mean two sides from Nat 1 coming into each National 2 league, and no promotion, which would slightly increase the playing standard.

But, there is talk of splitting National 1, which would reduce the playing standard.
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Originally posted by Thunderbird Thunderbird wrote:

Please do not mess with Nat 2 !!!! It has already been weakened by a reduction in numbers and increased promotion from below. It feels like we have been demoted by another means. The standard of play by most of us involved is it is noticeably weaker. 
I have no idea how we stop it.

Isn't this going to happen naturally?

There are fewer players than 5-10 years ago aren't there?
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Looks like any changes won't be made until 25/26, apart of course from the 1 up, 2 down from Nat.1 this season due to the demise of Jersey.

Edited by WILD BOAR - 11 Nov 2023 at 09:47
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Please do not mess with Nat 2 !!!! It has already been weakened by a reduction in numbers and increased promotion from below. It feels like we have been demoted by another means. The standard of play by most of us involved is it is noticeably weaker. 
I have no idea how we stop it.
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Nothing wrong with Nat 2 either, the Lions having played in all three of them( a bit of a record I think in recent times) I know they enjoyed the other clubs challenges.
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Originally posted by NeverbeentoChinnor NeverbeentoChinnor wrote:

RFU ; please leave it as it is and let the league continue to prosper with top quality rugby and entertainment.

Having seen the chaos that is the Premiership, the unbalanced Championship and rock steady National One, there's no doubt in my mind that National One is the place to be 😎


Edited by FHLH - 10 Nov 2023 at 19:03
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Originally posted by NeverbeentoChinnor NeverbeentoChinnor wrote:

No sitting on the fence from Chinnor:

<span style="color: rgb51, 51, 51; font-family: Montserrat, Gibson, Roboto, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Second host third on Saturday as two in form teams clash in what is certain to be a titanic contest. This match has certainly taken on more focus over the last few weeks with Rams losing their last 2 meaning Chinnor and Albion are now breathing down the leaders neck. With all the top 4 with identical playing records of won 6 , lost 2 National One is once again proving to be the most exciting league in the whole RFU pyramid _ RFU ; please leave it as it is and let the league continue to prosper with top quality rugby and entertainment.</span>


Well said.
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No sitting on the fence from Chinnor:

Second host third on Saturday as two in form teams clash in what is certain to be a titanic contest. This match has certainly taken on more focus over the last few weeks with Rams losing their last 2 meaning Chinnor and Albion are now breathing down the leaders neck. With all the top 4 with identical playing records of won 6 , lost 2 National One is once again proving to be the most exciting league in the whole RFU pyramid _ RFU ; please leave it as it is and let the league continue to prosper with top quality rugby and entertainment.
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With knock-on effects down the league structure, of course ...
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Since you can't (?) have a three-way play off, that would seem the only solution.
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I would make a sensible guess at 1 up from Nat 1 means two down and three up from Nat2, not sure the RFU do sensible though.
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We now hear that there will be promotion to the Championship at the end of this season (1 team) but no relegation the other way.

Will this mean only two teams relegated with three coming up, or three relegated with four coming up?  Does anyone know?


Edited by CJB1 - 21 Oct 2023 at 13:01
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Excellent post Dave. If you consider the county cups as another example. Blackheath can only play second teams in the cup which has further restrictions on who can be selected in an attempt to create a level playing field. In National 1 we play some of the clubs we played before the advent of leagues, Richmond/Rosslyn Park/ Moseley, Cov are in the Champ, Fylde in 2N a couple in the Premiership but some have gone and there was always the Welsh fixtures so very little historic county fixture
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My feeling, Camquin, is that you would have to go down to perhaps level 5 in my area - and that's lumping together Greater Manchester, Cheshire & the Wirral, and Lancashire - before you could make a viable league.

Pre leagues, the big clubs (generally described as the 'gate-taking' clubs) would have included Sale, Broughton Park and Manchester; then New Brighton and Birkenhead Park on the Wirral; Fylde, Liverpool, Waterloo, Vale of Lune and Preston Grasshoppers were the Lancashire big boys, joined by Orrell (who may have anticipated the ending of the amateur regulations a wee bit).

Other clubs of status, or pretention to status, would have included Chester, Wilmslow and Winnington Park, possibly, from Cheshire, and the 'town teams' from Lancs, such as St Helens (who combined with Liverpool), Wigan, Widnes, etc.

I was Fix Sec at Sedgley Park during the 1980s, and to get a game with any of those would have been beyond dreams. "Sedgley who?" was the usual response over the phone, and letters were ignored.

So, if I feel passionate about ring fencing, perhaps it's because I know what it is like to be on the outside of that very unfriendly barrier. The coming of the Courage Leagues gave Sedge our opportunity, and we took it. They couldn't dodge us any more....and the rest is history. Actually, I mentioned Widnes, above, and they were the one club who would play us, for which we are grateful.

I know every area is different, with different problems. We have huge soccer and rugby league on our doorstep; I think it was someone from North Walsham who bemoaned the problems of a small, rural population, which we certainly don't have.

The leagues eventually brought together clubs of similar playing standards, to the benefit of all. This season, to date in National 1, losing bonus points have been achieved in 21 of the 49 games - just as an easily accessed crude guide.

Apologies for the rambling rant, but we must not let 'them' destroy what has been built over almost 40 years.
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Camquin View Drop Down
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A thought experiment I would like to do, is what would happen if we said there are no national leagues, every club will play opponents just from their county?

How many clubs would find that an unacceptable fixture list, because they are just too strong for the opposition?

Now, obviously, the Premiership clubs would.
And probably the Championship and current National League clubs.

But could Regional 1 and Regional 2 sides live in a county league.

If the answer is yes, we can dramatically reduce travel, by abolishing those leagues.
Of course, it has to work for everyone - there is no good if it works in Yorkshire and round London, but there being a dozen counties with teams nobody wants to play - as they are too strong.

If it is no, then the current structure is about right.

Once we have established the smallest number of sides that have to play outside their county, then we can look at structures that minimise travel while providing as many sides as possible with an enticing fixture list.
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Originally posted by sedgley dave sedgley dave wrote:

Can we agree that rugby, at our level, works? It may not work as a business, but the aims are different. The aim of business is to make money; the aim of a rugby club is to play rugby, for which money is required. 

Week after week, at levels 3 and 4, we see closely contested games, open and fast and clean. Whatever they do in the corridors of power, we must not let them ruin this.

I am with tigerburnie on ring fencing. Have the fence, but there must be a gate in it to allow an ambitious and successful club through, if they're good enough on the field and want it, and to keep the clubs inside the fence honest.

Can't argue with that, there are some on other forums who think rugby cannot survive without the RFU, I beg to differ.
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