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Premiership II plans announced
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Points: 135 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Breakdown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2024 at 12:43
The capacity rules will be 5,000 in first season, 7,500 for the next two seasons and 10,000 in the fourth season. The proportion of seating will be confirmed later, but is not going to be oppressive because the whole point is to reduce the amount of capital-intense change in favour of just making a crowd-friendly experience to attract more people to the game.  There is no TV-ready requirement, not least because RFU/PRL did not even try to sell Championship rights in the last deal. 

I think the main point here is that the clubs now know what they have to do and can pitch the prospects to investors. People like Dicky Evans were looking for this level of certainty to make plans for their future. It's always been the case at Tier 2 that some clubs are happy just to be there and others will want to go for the glory. If you are Ealing, for instance, London Irish vacated Brentford so that is available - it would cost a lot of money if they are only getting 1500 people per game, but at least you have something to aim for. 
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Call me a cynic but does anyone else smell something a bit odd with the RFU?! Why have they made a U turn now? I think they are hoping that at least 2 of the franchises get rekindled into level 2 and then expand the Premiership back to 12 teams and pull up the draw bridge again? 

This might be a carrot for potential investors looking at London Irish, Worcester and Wasps. Who would invest in them if there was never a way back into the Premiership? 

There’s always dirty deals being done behind close doors and I wouldn’t be gobsmacked if there’s something going on here….
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So what has been agreed 
  1. Promotion to and Relegation From Prem 1 - We already had that this year but Ealing did not meet criteria will it be the same minimum 5000 how many seated and covered stands?
  2. What guarantees will be given to promoted club if it commits to infrastructure funding only to be relegated after year one or two?  
  3. Media and commercial Sponsorship- This is already been the responsibility of the Championship when the RFU could not sell it. Will Prem 2 be any different to major TV companies?
  4. Separate body to oversee Prem 2 - Currently managed by Championship now will be split between Championship and RFU chaired by an Independent person who effectively will have the casting vote!!
What does not appear to have been agreed 
  1. Funding for the Championship- the current net £140k which has £40k deducted from it for insurance will this go up on the assumption all clubs are fully professional, plus a further £60k to cover medical expenses, Doctor Ambulance, Physio and Physio equipment. There is no mention of this being increased.
  2. Premiership Relegation Parachute payment- Currently the relegated club still received Prem 1 funding and therefore has a big advantage over all other Championship Clubs making them odds on to get promotion.
  3. Equal Funding for Championship club being promoted into the Premiership. 
  4. Agreed criteria for Nat 1 winner to access Prem 2 - will it be automatic on winning Nat 1?
We have yet to hear officially what is happening next year 
  1. Funding
  2. Structure - Cup competition
  3. League size
  4. Relegation? 
  5. Franchise Club entry?
  6. What will happen to clubs who do not meet Prem Club criteria? will they have time to sort it 
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Nothings changed has it? It's still ringfenced in reality. Win the champ and then have to beat a perm team over two legs whilst commiting to expand your stadium to 10000 capacity over 4 seasons. 

That's going to take massive massive investment which no one has the appetite for. 
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Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:


That's going to take massive massive investment which no one has the appetite for. 


and as I said above for <20 hours/annum league rugby (plus possible cup depending on draw)


Edited by FHLH - 15 Jun 2024 at 14:16
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Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

The statement is all a bit academic until it is decided whether the Championship will contain previously bankrupt clubs and/or franchises though isn't it?

That will be very fiercely resisted by the current 12. My guess is that they might possibly allow a bit of regional tweaking if say Darlington finished very close to top of Nat 1, but no Phoenixes.

 
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Originally posted by Breakdown Breakdown wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

The statement is all a bit academic until it is decided whether the Championship will contain previously bankrupt clubs and/or franchises though isn't it?

That will be very fiercely resisted by the current 12. My guess is that they might possibly allow a bit of regional tweaking if say Darlington finished very close to top of Nat 1, but no Phoenixes.

 

I really hope the 12 remain united against the bankrupt clubs and franchises but suspect the RFU have already made up their minds that they want them in.
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Wevans, everything I have heard from the RFU refutes that. In January they clearly said that applications to Tier 2 could come from anywhere, including Universities, however, they made it clear that the failed Clubs would have to clear their rugby creditors, demonstrate working capital and have a ground meeting the Tier 2 requirements. None of them are anywhere near that, as far as I an aware.
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Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Wevans, everything I have heard from the RFU refutes that. In January they clearly said that applications to Tier 2 could come from anywhere, including Universities, however, they made it clear that the failed Clubs would have to clear their rugby creditors, demonstrate working capital and have a ground meeting the Tier 2 requirements. None of them are anywhere near that, as far as I an aware.


What are the Tier 2 requirements? I understand what the requirements are for Championship clubs wanting to get promoted to the Premiership but what about the likes of Ampthill, Caldy, and Cambridge? Even though their chances of promotion are negligible, do they need to meet certain requirements to take part in Tier 2?
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Entry regulations and criteria for the Championship

Edited by Bedford Bear - 16 Jun 2024 at 16:27
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Originally posted by Bedford Bear Bedford Bear wrote:

Entry regulations and criteria for the Championship
They are the 20/21 rules. More relevant are the criteria sent out to Nat 1 Clubs in Jan 24. Those do require Clubs to have a stand and seats. Crucially, the penalty for not having one is “no TV coverage” not relegation.
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Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Nothings changed has it? It's still ringfenced in reality. Win the champ and then have to beat a perm team over two legs whilst commiting to expand your stadium to 10000 capacity over 4 seasons. 

That's going to take massive massive investment which no one has the appetite for. 



So yet again, the illusion of an open and transparent system of promotion/relegation actually covers another cynical ploy designed to keep any Championship club from disrupting the Premiership Old Boys Club's cushy spots at the top.


Edited by Robb - 16 Jun 2024 at 17:20
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There are certain clubs within the championship who will not be interested in the Premiership 
1. Those clubs who rely on Premiership clubs to provide a substantial number of Academy / Loan/DOR players such as Ampthill, London Scottish, Cornish Pirates, Hartpury especially. What will the regulations be if any of those clubs were promoted would they still be allowed to maintain their relationship and effectively be a premiership club 2nd XV. 
2. Those clubs who will never be able to achieve the criteria, such as Caldy, Ampthill, Nottingham, Bedford (do they have the space or funding  to increase capacity to 10k after 4 years. London Scottish do not own their ground and share with Richmond, will Richmond be interested in developing to 10k? There are others who have not been mentioned who will need to look closely at the financial implications are worth gambling on for what could possibly be one season in the premiership.

It remains to be seen what the details are in the Criteria as the "Devil will be in the details"  
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All peace processes need a certain amount of ambiguity to get them over the line.
And both sides need to be able to claim their victories.

It is clear reading the statements that there is still a lot to be hammered out.
But, at this point something is better than nothing.

However, Newcastle know they only need to win the two legged play-off, and will presumably gear their season to that.
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Unless another prem club goes pop before that.


Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

All peace processes need a certain amount of ambiguity to get them over the line.
And both sides need to be able to claim their victories.

It is clear reading the statements that there is still a lot to be hammered out.
But, at this point something is better than nothing.

However, Newcastle know they only need to win the two legged play-off, and will presumably gear their season to that.
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Originally posted by Cherub Cherub wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Wevans, everything I have heard from the RFU refutes that. In January they clearly said that applications to Tier 2 could come from anywhere, including Universities, however, they made it clear that the failed Clubs would have to clear their rugby creditors, demonstrate working capital and have a ground meeting the Tier 2 requirements. None of them are anywhere near that, as far as I an aware.


What are the Tier 2 requirements? I understand what the requirements are for Championship clubs wanting to get promoted to the Premiership but what about the likes of Ampthill, Caldy, and Cambridge? Even though their chances of promotion are negligible, do they need to meet certain requirements to take part in Tier 2?

Absolutely they do. They have met THE key requirement though. That is, be good enough to get promoted / compete in the Championship on merit. Anything else is largely irrelevant in the Championship / Premiership 2.

They cannot and should not be excluded because they don’t meet the minimum capacity to reach the Prem. That should only arise if they finished bottom. These clubs must be protected.


Edited by Rothman2 - 16 Jun 2024 at 21:23
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Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

There are certain clubs within the championship who will not be interested in the Premiership 
1. Those clubs who rely on Premiership clubs to provide a substantial number of Academy / Loan/DOR players such as Ampthill, London Scottish, Cornish Pirates, Hartpury especially. What will the regulations be if any of those clubs were promoted would they still be allowed to maintain their relationship and effectively be a premiership club 2nd XV. 
2. Those clubs who will never be able to achieve the criteria, such as Caldy, Ampthill, Nottingham, Bedford (do they have the space or funding  to increase capacity to 10k after 4 years. London Scottish do not own their ground and share with Richmond, will Richmond be interested in developing to 10k? There are others who have not been mentioned who will need to look closely at the financial implications are worth gambling on for what could possibly be one season in the premiership.

It remains to be seen what the details are in the Criteria as the "Devil will be in the details"  

Your comments about the Pirates are ill informed. We have used DRs from Exeter in the light of the uncertainty caused by the RFUs procrastination and prevarication. Dickie Evans has committed £millions to a club in a deprived and isolated part of the country. A youthful and largely unheralded side has just finished second in the Championship.
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The posts on this thread are balanced but generally also have the cynicism that is to be expected as regards any interaction between level 2 and below and the RFU.

I think I am a fair minded individual but there is no part of me that either trusts the RFU or believes that the RFU acts in a fair and transparent manner in regard  it's custody of the game played by some 2,000 or so clubs. The RFU Executive is clearly only interested in the elite and the Premiership.

As far as I am concerned the values and integrity of rugby as I played it and knew it has gone, probably forever. When such values were the cornerstone of rugby there would never have been any thought or discussion that 3 clubs who have gone spectacularly bust and ruined countless lives could be potentially readmitted straight back into level 2. 

That would be so outrageous a suggestion and so against what the game was about that anyone who raised such a scandalous thought would have been carted off to the asylum.

If the RFU really is entertaining such a divisive and immoral suggestion the game is finished as far as I am concerned.

Workerbee is right the 'devil will be in the detail'




Edited by Big Eddie - 17 Jun 2024 at 10:04
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Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Wevans, everything I have heard from the RFU refutes that. In January they clearly said that applications to Tier 2 could come from anywhere, including Universities, however, they made it clear that the failed Clubs would have to clear their rugby creditors, demonstrate working capital and have a ground meeting the Tier 2 requirements. None of them are anywhere near that, as far as I an aware.

And yet just over a year ago the RFU offered Wasps with no ground and no players a place in the Championship.

Sorry Halliford my view remains unchanged.
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Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Wevans, everything I have heard from the RFU refutes that. In January they clearly said that applications to Tier 2 could come from anywhere, including Universities, however, they made it clear that the failed Clubs would have to clear their rugby creditors, demonstrate working capital and have a ground meeting the Tier 2 requirements. None of them are anywhere near that, as far as I an aware.

And yet just over a year ago the RFU offered Wasps with no ground and no players a place in the Championship.

Sorry Halliford my view remains unchanged.

I am in complete agreement with you WEvans, paying off rugby creditors is one thing but what about all the other creditors, the supplier of pies and other catering servives, the cleaners, the tradesmen working on infrastructure, the local printer, the company that hosted and maintained the website, the security guards...........

Even if everyone was paid in full, London Irish, Wasps, Worcester [and the Jersey Reds] should still start towards the bottom of the pyramid because Richmond, London Welsh and a fair few other clubs all had to start at a much lower point than level 2. London Welsh reconvened with their amateur side and Richmond apparently restarted in Surrey 1

A swift edit thanks to a message from a very knowledgeable individual who has made me aware that it wasn't Jersey RFC who went bump but the Jersey 'Reds' the professional set up which is a separate entity. Apologies to Jersey RFC for my inaccurate comments.

My learned friend made it clear that there is no prospect of Jersey Reds ever restarting and he also corrected my blanket comment (since corrected by me in this edit ) that London Welsh and Richmond had to start at the very bottom of the pyramid......


Edited by Big Eddie - 17 Jun 2024 at 16:27
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