National League Rugby Discussion Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk > The Championship
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Premiership II plans announced
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

IMPORTANT Remember to read the rules of the board and abide by them when posting.

Premiership II plans announced

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 67>
Author
Message
Big Eddie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5089
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 16:15
In a democratic institution the Executive Management would listen to the valid concerns of senior institutional shareholders.........it doesn't look likely that King Billy is going to take any notice of what the Championship clubs say....

I wonder whether the Council Members will respond and kick up a fuss (which is all they are able to do) or just say OK by us King Billy.....


''The future isn't what it used to be''
Back to Top
sedgley dave View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion


Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Location: Prestwich
Status: Offline
Points: 213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sedgley dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 16:29
I think I understand.

The RFU will say that the Championship clubs 'lack the ambition' to progress, and therefore have 'relegated themselves', leaving the Prem to replenish stocks with failed clubs and new franchises, eventually enough to form a 2-div Prem. Plus, perhaps, the odd defector from the Championship, (splitters!). Perhaps some Welsh or South Africans?

So, the Championship becomes National 1, 1 becomes 2, and the three 2s become three 3s.

Nothing has changed, except there is now a ring fence. But here's clever bit, the fence was erected by the (former) Championship clubs, not by the Prem / RFU. "We really wanted you, but you lacked the ambition."
Back to Top
Big Eddie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5089
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 16:38
Originally posted by sedgley dave sedgley dave wrote:

I think I understand.

The RFU will say that the Championship clubs 'lack the ambition' to progress, and therefore have 'relegated themselves', leaving the Prem to replenish stocks with failed clubs and new franchises, eventually enough to form a 2-div Prem. Plus, perhaps, the odd defector from the Championship, (splitters!). Perhaps some Welsh or South Africans?

So, the Championship becomes National 1, 1 becomes 2, and the three 2s become three 3s.

Nothing has changed, except there is now a ring fence. But here's clever bit, the fence was erected by the (former) Championship clubs, not by the Prem / RFU. "We really wanted you, but you lacked the ambition."

When you talk about the RFU you really mean the Executive Management AKA King Billy and his courtiers, because in reality the RFU is an organisation of some 2,000 clubs.

King Billy and his courtiers are pursuing the agenda that CVC wants to pursue which is to control rugby using the assets of the RFU without giving any thought to the legitimate rights of the 99.9% majority owners of the RFU.

In King Billy, CVC have the perfect puppet to drive their agenda.......
''The future isn't what it used to be''
Back to Top
Steve@Mose View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3042
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 09:51
RFU 'playing God' with Championship sides over league proposals, says Coventry chief

Quote
Coventry chief executive Nick Johnston says the Rugby Football Union (RFU) is "playing God with people's wellbeing".

Coventry are one of the 11 Championship clubs to reject the RFU's planned franchise-based model which would start in the summer of 2025.

They have concerns over promotion and relegation to and from the league.

Clubs say the RFU has threatened them with "effective relegation to the National Leagues" if they do not sign up for a planned new league.

"They're playing God with people's wellbeing and livelihoods, and they don't seem to care about that," Johnston told BBC CWR.

"They don't seem to care about the effect it has on our employees, who read things in the media that we have to answer with.

"We have to deal with sponsors, partners, community partners, stakeholders on a daily basis, but they wouldn't know what that is because they don't come anywhere near our clubs, they don't come and see 5,000 people having a fantastic day out on Boxing Day.,

"They've never been to our ground, these people who are making the decisions."

...

Johnston's concerns are echoed by Cornish Pirates joint-head coach Gavin Cattle.

Cattle has been with the Penzance-based side as a player or coach for 18 of the past 20 years, and says the uncertainty surrounding the future of the league - and the clubs within it - is unsettling.

"Our players are on short-term contracts for this season," he told BBC Radio Cornwall.

"The players have got their own story, obviously they buy into the team, but it's really important that if they've got any aspirations in rugby or they want to keep this as a profession, that they need to perform, and that's the bit we can control.

"The other bits in the background, that's to do with the future of the club and that, is it a distraction? Well yes it is, but it's how you prioritise those distractions and just control what you can control really."
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 10:50
You would think the Minister for Sport would be taking an interest in what is going on here, if this is legal how the hell can businesses exist when the governing body can remove funding and dictate what clubs can and can't do with no dialogue whatsoever.
Back to Top
Breakdown View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 11 Apr 2023
Location: SW London
Status: Offline
Points: 135
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Breakdown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 11:00
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

You would think the Minister for Sport would be taking an interest in what is going on here, if this is legal how the hell can businesses exist when the governing body can remove funding and dictate what clubs can and can't do with no dialogue whatsoever.

I have heard tell that at least one of the Championship clubs obtained counsel's opinion for a possible referral to the Competition and Markets Authority a couple of years ago, which would I imagine still be in someone's back pocket. 

Given that all the Tier 2 and 3 and probably most of the rest as well operate as businesses in a demonstrably competitive market on both the supply and demand side, it would seem to me there is an obvious jurisdiction for the CMA. As you say, how can businesses exist when these sorts of ultra vires diktats are handed down without consultation or voting?
Broken down. Beyond repair.
Back to Top
islander View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 17 Mar 2010
Location: jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 7872
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 13:29
National papers have (slightly belatedly) got their teeth into this - it's been in Times, Telegraph and Grauniad in last 24 hrs


Telegraph pasted below...

Championship clubs hit back at Bill Sweeney’s ‘unacceptable’ ultimatum

There are concerns over funding in a potential 'Premiership 2', with some in the RFU criticised as 'not engaging' with Championship clubs

Daniel Schofield, DEPUTY RUGBY UNION CORRESPONDENT10 January 2024 • 6:21pm

Rugby Football Union chief executive Bill Sweeney’s ultimatum over Premiership 2 has been branded “unacceptable” by Championship clubs who warned the England team will be significantly damaged if they are forced into the community game.
Championship clubs remain united against the governing body’s vision of bringing in a franchise-based Premiership 2, including a potentially reformed Wasps. The clubs’ primary objections centre around the lack of detail on promotion to the Premiership, player development plans, governance and funding, which could be reduced by half in the new Premiership 2. The tender process for the league, which is supposed to launch for the 2025/26 season, closes in February.
Sweeney last month insisted that if not enough clubs signed up “then you revert back to the status quo and you lose this opportunity.” However, Simon Halliday, chairman of the Championship clubs, appealed to the RFU Council and Sport England to stop them from being exiled into the community game.
“What Bill said before Christmas is unacceptable,” Halliday said. “It is just binary. Why does that need to be the outcome? So it needs to be challenged and I think the majority of the game would expect us to challenge it. I think the outcome is easily found and we collectively wish to find that solution. We don’t want to have it imposed upon us, particularly when it is not a whole-game solution.”
Telegraph Sport understands that the RFU has made direct appeals to a number of National 1 clubs, including Rams in Berkshire and Darlington Mowden Park, to join Premiership 2. While there have been numerous meetings at Twickenham, the Championship clubs believe their views have consistently been ignored with Alistair Bow, the vice-chairman of the clubs and chairman of flood-hit Nottingham, directly accusing Sweeney of disrespecting them in a meeting in August.
“They twist it to suit their own agenda on that particular day,” Bow said. “It gets extremely frustrating, especially when the chief executive will sit there and spend the whole time on his phone. We are doing our utmost to engage but it’s very difficult when you’ve got some people who obviously don’t want to engage.”
Under plans shared with the Championship, the RFU would commit to providing £4 million for the proposed Premiership 2. However, £1.4 million will be kept by the RFU for central initiatives such as marketing, £1 million will be allocated towards player development, leaving just £1.6 million for the 11 clubs. Minus an estimated £600,000 for insurance and that would give each team around £80-90,000, which is less than the paltry £160,000 they currently receive in central funding. Championship clubs would also have to pay to meet the new minimum standards to enter Premiership 2.
“So technically the new tier two competition is 50 per cent less funded than where we are today,” Bow said. “We need to get rid of the myth that everything we are doing is about funding. We have invested around £200 million from owners into this league since the Championship was formed. We want to protect that £200 million. We are happy to continue investing but we want other people to come on board and invest with us. At the moment the RFU are the smallest investors in the league by some distance.”
The Championship clubs are presenting a united front in the face of the RFU’s advances. Conor O’Shea, the RFU’s performance director, admits that Premiership 2 would be a critical role in the pathway for young English players, but as Sweeney conceded they would not be able to form a Premiership 2 without a significant section of clubs breaking away.
With the RFU holding the purse strings, the Championship has seemingly little leverage in the negotiations, but Simon Cohen, the former Leicester chief executive now advising the Championship, argues the second tier is fundamental to giving the next generation of English players game time.
“If you are talking about leverage, the Premiership is going to go to 37 players plus 12 transition so they’re going to cut their squads significantly,” Cohen said. “England are lacking in players coming through and depth in certain positions. If you are correct in what they say is all they want is the best possible England team then in order to do that they need the Championship clubs. They need that game time and they need that game time in the right environment and right context to produce those players because you are not going to produce them in an academy system that is going into 37 plus 12.”
The RFU remains hopeful that the Championship clubs will still apply to Premiership 2. A spokesperson said: “The RFU has been consulting with Championship clubs for over a year. We have researched and produced a commercial strategy and provided the clubs with confirmed funding at at least existing levels for 24/25 season and proposals for increased funding from 25/26 season. We will continue to consult with Championship clubs and very much hope that they choose to be part of what could become a more thriving and sustainable second professional tier.”

Back to Top
rugbychris View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion


Joined: 02 May 2019
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 13:36

Exeter Chiefs: Pre-tax losses rise to more than £4.5m at Premiership club


No investor is going to touch the Prem 2 Franchise with a bargepole. RFU should be concentrating on keeping the existing 10 teams afloat.
Back to Top
gerg_861 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Location: Ealing
Status: Offline
Points: 2925
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 14:30
Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Exeter Chiefs: Pre-tax losses rise to more than £4.5m at Premiership club


No investor is going to touch the Prem 2 Franchise with a bargepole. RFU should be concentrating on keeping the existing 10 teams afloat.

Are you suggesting that they deserve even more central support?
Back to Top
Richard Lowther View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: 19 May 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 6632
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 14:38
Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Exeter Chiefs: Pre-tax losses rise to more than £4.5m at Premiership club


No investor is going to touch the Prem 2 Franchise with a bargepole. RFU should be concentrating on keeping the existing 10 teams afloat.

You could give the existing Premiership clubs ten times the amount of money they currently receive and they would still make losses because it would just go on higher player salaries. 
Moderator National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 14:47
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Exeter Chiefs: Pre-tax losses rise to more than £4.5m at Premiership club


No investor is going to touch the Prem 2 Franchise with a bargepole. RFU should be concentrating on keeping the existing 10 teams afloat.

You could give the existing Premiership clubs ten times the amount of money they currently receive and they would still make losses because it would just go on higher player salaries. 

Not all voted for the increase in the salary cap, some are concerned for the future, some are just greedy and don't care, I bet you can't guess which are the greedy ones...............lol
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 12017
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 14:57
And yet, clubs are planning to increase the salary cap - possibly by £1.6m.

Though, Sanderson has opposed this in last week's Rugby paper.
Pointing out, Sale lose £4m while opponents Bristol were losing £5m.

With those sorts of losses - more clubs will surely go bust.
Sweeney Delenda Est
Back to Top
Big Eddie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5089
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 15:05
.....and the rest of the rugby community is paying the price for this.
''The future isn't what it used to be''
Back to Top
rugbychris View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion


Joined: 02 May 2019
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 15:56
Gerg_861 No certainly not. Just saying it's madness that the RFU are trying to expand to a 2nd premier league when the existing one is obviously in dire-straits. Who are they kidding?

Edited by rugbychris - 11 Jan 2024 at 15:59
Back to Top
Richard Lowther View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: 19 May 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 6632
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 16:20
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

.....and the rest of the rugby community is paying the price for this.

How was Caldy directly affected by Wasps, London Irish or Worcester going bust? 


Moderator National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC
Back to Top
Big Eddie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5089
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 16:49
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

.....and the rest of the rugby community is paying the price for this.
How was Caldy directly affected by Wasps, London Irish or Worcester or Jersey going bust? 

Jersey going bust directly cost Caldy a lot of money .

30 prepaid flights to Jersey 
15 hotel rooms in Jersey
Income from a home match against Jersey when we could have expected a crowd of at least 1,500




Edited by Big Eddie - 11 Jan 2024 at 16:50
''The future isn't what it used to be''
Back to Top
Richard Lowther View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: 19 May 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 6632
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 18:12
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

.....and the rest of the rugby community is paying the price for this.
How was Caldy directly affected by Wasps, London Irish or Worcester or Jersey going bust? 

Jersey going bust directly cost Caldy a lot of money .

30 prepaid flights to Jersey 
15 hotel rooms in Jersey
Income from a home match against Jersey when we could have expected a crowd of at least 1,500



But Jersey wasn't in my list. I asked specifically about the other three as your general steer is about too much going to the Premiership and clubs there going bust  and " the Rugby community is paying the price", so again what was the effect on Caldy of these three going bust? 
Moderator National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC
Back to Top
Big Eddie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5089
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 18:34
Richard the direct effect on Caldy of the three clubs you mentioned going bust is essentially the emergence of Premiership II with the RFU looking to create a franchise model based upon criteria such as branding, infrastructure etc with no element of meritocracy.

Wasps, Worcester and London Irish being considered by the RFU of being more worthy of revival of staying in the 2nd tier than clubs like Caldy and Ampthill who have reached this level based upon merit.

Caldy who are constrained from building a stand in green belt and National Trust land (bequeathed in perpetuity to Caldy for sport) will be demoted by the RFU to make way for three clubs that no longer exist, have no ground and went bust owing many tens of £millions.

That is how Caldy have been directly affected by the insolvency of Wasps, London Irish and Worcester
''The future isn't what it used to be''
Back to Top
Se7en View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Apr 2023
Location: Not given
Status: Offline
Points: 659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Se7en Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 18:42
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

.....and the rest of the rugby community is paying the price for this.
How was Caldy directly affected by Wasps, London Irish or Worcester or Jersey going bust? 

Jersey going bust directly cost Caldy a lot of money .

30 prepaid flights to Jersey 
15 hotel rooms in Jersey
Income from a home match against Jersey when we could have expected a crowd of at least 1,500



Sorry to piggy back on this post, but I don't know the workings of the Championship and I'd be interested to know if Caldy, and the other Level 2 clubs, have sufficient insurance in place for these eventualities to at least soften the blow? Does an adequate level of cover even exist? Is there a central compensation fund or similar in place that clubs can apply to? 

For example I'm aware that both Ealing and Bedford have travelled to Caldy over the last 2 seasons for matches that have then been postponed a short time before KOs, at their clubs/their fans' own expense I presume? 

Maybe best as another seperate topic of discussion, sorry!
Back to Top
Big Eddie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5089
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 18:50
In both occasions you refer to at Caldy the frozen North was the culprit. I know in the case of Ealing the game was considered to be unlikely to be played sometime in advance of the day but the team travelled anyway.

In the case of Bedford the weather forecast was such that it was likely that the pitch would be playable (it was by 2 pm on the three previous days) but on the Saturday the forecast for sun was incorrect and the pitch remained frozen.

In these cases I understand the RFU's disputes committee investigates the circumstances to determine if the home side followed all protocols correctly. If they haven't I believe the RFU can instruct that the home side reimburse the travelling side's costs.

Caldy followed all protocols so there was no judgement against them by the RFU

There may be insurance available but it would be prohibitively costly and from a financial point of view completely un-economic. 
''The future isn't what it used to be''
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 67>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.