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Promotion

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Topic: Promotion
Posted By: Camquin
Subject: Promotion
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 00:33
The regulations helpfully say, "the top two Clubs in each Level 5 League will be promoted to Level 4 or such other number as notified by the Committee in order to effect the league sizes set out in Regulation 13.2.4"

Which is not a lot of help.

I suspect it will turn out to be 10 up across the four leagues, with best playing record selecting the two third place teams.

So I believe Old Redcliffians are in pole on 89 points, with Hertford on 81 in second, though only on wins from Blackburn, with Syston training on 77 points, but remember Foinavon.

Five tough games and a few shredded nails


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Sweeney Delenda Est



Replies:
Posted By: carlos fandango
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 08:32
Is number of wins the tie-breaker or number of losses? Or is that the third decider?

Very confusing and LSE will go to the last day of the season.


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 09:38
Best Playing Record is defined in Regulation 1, Definitions.

Its League points, then most wins, most draws, and higher points difference.

If that does not split  the sides, then ignore the first match of the season.
In all cases, averaged by the number of matches - but that should not be an issue this year.
A walkover counts as a win, but is ignored when calculation points difference per match.

Within a league points total is counts after points difference, but not between leagues.


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Sweeney Delenda Est


Posted By: carlos fandango
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 10:45
Cheers


Posted By: Lord_Kitchener
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 12:56
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Best Playing Record is defined in Regulation 1, Definitions.

Its League points, then most wins, most draws, and higher points difference.

If that does not split  the sides, then ignore the first match of the season.
In all cases, averaged by the number of matches - but that should not be an issue this year.
A walkover counts as a win, but is ignored when calculation points difference per match.

Within a league points total is counts after points difference, but not between leagues.

Now that CS Stags have effectively been removed from the league and all points associated with their games declared null and void. These wins would not count.


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 15:06
That means we will be looking at points per game, etc.

It is a pity as Civil Service were a founding member of the RFU. They were also founding members of the FA, but the members split, with one section adopting Association laws and the other, Stags, sticking to Rugby Laws. The Association section is the only remaining founder member of the FA. 


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Sweeney Delenda Est


Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 15:43
Yes, shame about CS Stags if they are withdrawing (or bring withdrawn). Never nice to see that.

I see none of the top 4 still had to play CS, so is it right that the standings wouldn't be affected by their results being expunged?


Posted By: Clueless like most
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 15:49
Does anyone know if there any investigations underway of club/s in London Prem ? 


Posted By: Lord_Kitchener
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 16:58
Originally posted by Clueless like most Clueless like most wrote:

Does anyone know if there any investigations underway of club/s in London Prem ? 

In what way?


Posted By: SurreyRugby
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 18:06
If CS are exited, how are the 2 3rd place promotions spots decided? Given 10 sides are promoted from level 5. Dorking have the biggest impact on their points difference. 142 vs 7 in two games. What an administration headache. My view. Leave CS alone this season. Let them regather.


Posted By: Lord_Kitchener
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 18:13
Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

If CS are exited, how are the 2 3rd place promotions spots decided? Given 10 sides are promoted from level 5. Dorking have the biggest impact on their points difference. 142 vs 7 in two games. What an administration headache. My view. Leave CS alone this season. Let them regather.

My view. Let the teams decide. CS want to go down a league anyway so let that happen next season. A withdrawal bumps them down to Level 10 and that’s not a good outcome.


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 18:27
Originally posted by Clueless like most Clueless like most wrote:

Does anyone know if there any investigations underway of club/s in London Prem ? 

Aside of Civil Service getting kicked out? What kind do you mean? 


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 18:28
Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

If CS are exited, how are the 2 3rd place promotions spots decided? Given 10 sides are promoted from level 5. Dorking have the biggest impact on their points difference. 142 vs 7 in two games. What an administration headache. My view. Leave CS alone this season. Let them regather.

If Civil Service get ejected, then results against them are wiped as if they never happened.

I can't see how they can regather as they have no youth section, only 1 team in a fiercely competitive rugby area, no ownership of their ground and (what I presume is) little backing from the Civil Service.


Posted By: HAVANT TONY
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 19:04
Doom and gloom has  been on the cards all season for CS and it comes as no surprise to us all  that they will get binned from this league
It obviously  looks like we wont have had a chance to play them at all this season!! 
our game against them in a few weeks is our last home game of the season and the presidents lunch which both combined  normally sees 800 or more people pack Hooks Lane, much needed revenue for us ....more than probably now flushed  down the pan!


Posted By: Clueless like most
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 08:52
It is normally about now deducted points start to appear for falling foul of rules. I believe that two clubs in the leagues are being investigated but for what, I do not know. 


Posted By: HAVANT TONY
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 09:14
Originally posted by Clueless like most Clueless like most wrote:

It is normally about now deducted points start to appear for falling foul of rules. I believe that two clubs in the leagues are being investigated but for what, I do not know. 

Which two clubs?.....you cant say that, then not tell us🙄


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 10:42
Presumably, one would be Old Albanians, as they have got a 5 point deduction.

If CS Stags withdraw, the games they played are null and void.
The ranking of the third place teams is on a points per game basis.

So
Hertford would now be on 71 points from 19 games of 3.74 points per game.
Blackburn would be on 81/21 = 3.86 points per game.

However, according to their website, Stags are intending to play next week - and to pay tribute to Stevie Fuller in a buffet after the match.

If CS Stags complete the season, albeit with a number of walkovers, Hertford keeps the points and wins. But the walk-over is not counted if the calculation needs to go to points difference per game.


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Sweeney Delenda Est


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 10:59
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Presumably, one would be Old Albanians, as they have got a 5 point deduction.

If CS Stags withdraw, the games they played are null and void.
The ranking of the third place teams is on a points per game basis.

So
Hertford would now be on 71 points from 19 games of 3.74 points per game.
Blackburn would be on 81/21 = 3.86 points per game.

However, according to their website, Stags are intending to play next week - and to pay tribute to Stevie Fuller in a buffet after the match.

If CS Stags complete the season, albeit with a number of walkovers, Hertford keeps the points and wins. But the walk-over is not counted if the calculation needs to go to points difference per game.

That's the problem, Civil Service don't seem to have a choice about withdrawing. The RFU (or LSE RFU) are kicking them out unless they appeal by Friday apparently


Posted By: Happy
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 11:54
Originally posted by HAVANT TONY HAVANT TONY wrote:

Originally posted by Clueless like most Clueless like most wrote:

It is normally about now deducted points start to appear for falling foul of rules. I believe that two clubs in the leagues are being investigated but for what, I do not know. 

Which two clubs?.....you cant say that, then not tell us🙄
. G'day no idea mate l, strewth you'd have to be a bit of a galah for that 


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 12:59
I obviously have not been following closely, but they have forfeited a lot of games - so something is obviously wrong.

Presumably, there would be nothing stopping the Stags fixtures going ahead as a friendly, with the host club potentially lending them players to get a game.


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Sweeney Delenda Est


Posted By: Lord_Kitchener
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 13:12
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Presumably, one would be Old Albanians, as they have got a 5 point deduction.

If CS Stags withdraw, the games they played are null and void.
The ranking of the third place teams is on a points per game basis.

So
Hertford would now be on 71 points from 19 games of 3.74 points per game.
Blackburn would be on 81/21 = 3.86 points per game.

However, according to their website, Stags are intending to play next week - and to pay tribute to Stevie Fuller in a buffet after the match.

If CS Stags complete the season, albeit with a number of walkovers, Hertford keeps the points and wins. But the walk-over is not counted if the calculation needs to go to points difference per game.

That's the problem, Civil Service don't seem to have a choice about withdrawing. The RFU (or LSE RFU) are kicking them out unless they appeal by Friday apparently

On tha basis that the precedent is if you give 5 walkovers in a season, you are withdrawn. Nothing specific in the regs about this.


Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 07:07
After the promotions it’s the shuffling of the pack that will be most entertaining.
A new league from North and Midlands 
Another from South West and London

As Bedfords second club Ath are already promoted, it is interesting that whilst in the past they have been on the edge of Midlands Premier, it seems with geography not always matching club numbers possible Ath could be playing away anywhere from Leicestershire to Hertfordshire next season. 

With 26 clubs at least to be promoted into the six leagues, going to be a lot of new visitors at our local grounds, and new grounds to visit.

I can’t begin to work out how many promotions might be needed to fill level 6, with 4 extra leagues. 


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The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused.


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 10:06
Counting on my fingers, and I might not have this quite right.

2; Championship; No promotion, No relegation
3: National 1: One up, two down
4: National 2 One up from each league, no relegation, one extra league
5: Regional Premier: Two up from each league, plus 2 best placed third place teams, two extra leagues
6; Regional 1: Two up from each league, plus 10 best placed third place teams, four extra leagues.
7: Regional 2: Two up from each league, plus 10 best placed third place teams.

As far as I know, the structure at levels 7 and below are still to be determined, with each CB voting whether to admit club second teams into the leagues.


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Sweeney Delenda Est


Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 10:16
CQ I reckon Donny will win their appeal and the league and go up. Was informed both Surrey and Middlesex clubs have voted not to allow club 2nd teams into the leagues.-seems a bit of a waste of time the RFU spending over a year deciding that this was a good thing for the community game if the local clubs can within a month decide they do not want it. Mind you when did turkeys ever vote for xmas.


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 10:52
As far as I am aware,
Essex and Leicestershire voted no.
North Midlands and Eastern Counties voted yes.



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Sweeney Delenda Est


Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 11:09
Originally posted by marigold marigold wrote:

CQ I reckon Donny will win their appeal and the league and go up. Was informed both Surrey and Middlesex clubs have voted not to allow club 2nd teams into the leagues.-seems a bit of a waste of time the RFU spending over a year deciding that this was a good thing for the community game if the local clubs can within a month decide they do not want it. Mind you when did turkeys ever vote for xmas.

Just under £1 mil on sorting out 2nd xv rugby " for the good of the game" I was told by a member on the council that they are looking at for costs for this ... another total waste of time and money, but people who do not have a clue


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 11:43
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Counting on my fingers, and I might not have this quite right.

2; Championship; No promotion, No relegation
3: National 1: One up, two down
4: National 2 One up from each league, no relegation, one extra league
5: Regional Premier: Two up from each league, plus 2 best placed third place teams, two extra leagues
6; Regional 1: Two up from each league, plus 10 best placed third place teams, four extra leagues.
7: Regional 2: Two up from each league, plus 10 best placed third place teams.

As far as I know, the structure at levels 7 and below are still to be determined, with each CB voting whether to admit club second teams into the leagues.
Almost right!  I think it's three up from each league at level 6 & 7, according to this document:
http://www.englandrugby.com//dxdam/4e/4e0b7e4d-cd94-4ab0-a58a-84c4b97ce2f7/Regulation%2013_Dec%2021.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.englandrugby.com//dxdam/4e/4e0b7e4d-cd94-4ab0-a58a-84c4b97ce2f7/Regulation%2013_Dec%2021.pdf
13.2.6 Principles of Promotion
In order to achieve the League Restructuring for the 2022-23 Season, at the conclusion of the 2021-22 Season the following principles of promotion shall apply:
(a) Level 1 (Premiership) and Level 2 (Championship): promotion and relegation as between Level 1 and the Championship shall be as agreed by the RFU and notified to the Clubs;
(b) Level 3: subject to Regulation 5, the top Club in Level 3 shall be promoted to Level 2 or, if notified by the Committee, the second to top Club in addition to the top Club;
(c) Level 4: the top Club in each Level 4 League will be promoted to Level 3 or such other number as notified by the Committee in order to effect the league sizes set out in Regulation 13.2.4;
(d) Level 5: the top two Clubs in each Level 5 League will be promoted to Level 4 or such other number as notified by the Committee in order to effect the league sizes set out in Regulation 13.2.4;
(e) Level 6: the top three Clubs in each Level 6 League will be promoted to Level 5 or such other number as notified by the Committee in order to effect the league sizes set out in Regulation 13.2.4;
(f) at Level 7, (subject to Regulation 13.2.6(g)) the top three Clubs in each of the supporting 12 or 13 club Leagues and the top four clubs in each of the supporting 14 club leagues at the end of the Season shall be promoted (unless otherwise approved by the Committee). Any remaining spaces in the higher league will be determined at the end of the season by such applicable criteria as notified by the
RFU to the Clubs;


Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 11:49
I have been present on several "Zoom" calls "Webinars" etc etc on this very subject and thankfully we in the North Midlands with a lot of lobbying of the clubs managed to get this through (motion defeated but not by enough margin to overturn the RFU default position)
In simple terms this is how it was put to us
- RFU announces new league structure after "alleged" mass consultation and discussion
- RFU then realises "Oops we haven't got enough clubs to fill all the gaps further down the pyramid in which case unwilling clubs get sucked into promotions they don't want and end up doing more travelling which is the exact opposite of what this was all supposed to address
- RFU solution was to invite 2nd XV's into the ECC capped at max Level 7 (to be reviewed in 3 years)
It will certainly work for my club and our region especially for those on the extremities of the North Mids who's 2nd XV's were either having to travel long distances to play or having multiple cry-offs from opposition unwilling to travel. In the season pre-Covid our 2nd XV's travelling to away fixtures was in excess of that done by our semi-pro 1st XV which is absolutely bonkers
Hope that sheds some light - happy to answer any more questions that anyone may have
The number of promotions further down the pyramid will now be clearly affected by how many clubs enter their 2nd XV's and at what level despite what the initial guidelines just posted by MarkW-J may say



Posted By: WESTCOMBE RANGER
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 14:06
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

I have been present on several "Zoom" calls "Webinars" etc etc on this very subject and thankfully we in the North Midlands with a lot of lobbying of the clubs managed to get this through (motion defeated but not by enough margin to overturn the RFU default position)
In simple terms this is how it was put to us
- RFU announces new league structure after "alleged" mass consultation and discussion
- RFU then realises "Oops we haven't got enough clubs to fill all the gaps further down the pyramid in which case unwilling clubs get sucked into promotions they don't want and end up doing more travelling which is the exact opposite of what this was all supposed to address
- RFU solution was to invite 2nd XV's into the ECC capped at max Level 7 (to be reviewed in 3 years)
It will certainly work for my club and our region especially for those on the extremities of the North Mids who's 2nd XV's were either having to travel long distances to play or having multiple cry-offs from opposition unwilling to travel. In the season pre-Covid our 2nd XV's travelling to away fixtures was in excess of that done by our semi-pro 1st XV which is absolutely bonkers
Hope that sheds some light - happy to answer any more questions that anyone may have
The number of promotions further down the pyramid will now be clearly affected by how many clubs enter their 2nd XV's and at what level despite what the initial guidelines just posted by MarkW-J may say

A question I have for season 23/24 and thereafter, is " Would clubs still retain some rights to refuse a level transfer " 
I ask this because in the past we have seen teams such as Hinckley and Amphill playing in Kent, and currently North Walsham have two fixtures on the South Coast and vice versa. 
If the whole idea is to make the leagues more regionalised, there could be.  trouble ahead.



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The older I get, the better I was.


Posted By: SmilingD
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 14:11
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

As far as I am aware,
Essex and Leicestershire voted no.
North Midlands and Eastern Counties voted yes.


Not quite correct Camquin. Eastern Counties did not hold a vote (it was optional), because virtually all the lower XVs in EC are already in the league structure (albeit at L9 and below).

I understand that Middlesex voted no, as did Hertfordshire but not by the 2/3 majority required to take effect. Which all makes for a bit of a muddle in this particular quadrant of the London division.

Meanwhile some clubs are playing their final games of the season with no clarity about what they are aiming for and the kind of calculations that are shown here about numbers being promoted or upgraded could all be thrown into disarray if lots of 2nd XVs appear at L7.

And when you ask the RFU how they are going to ensure that a team that is billed as a 2nd or 3rd XV actually is a 2nd or 3rd XV when they play, there is silence in return.


Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 14:33
Meanwhile in the North only Cheshire voted in favour of Lower XV entry. That will be interesting as the remaining Lancashire Level 7 Clubs will probably exit from the RFU Leagues if Lower XVs come in meaning any Lower XVs joining the North West (I'm told its a maximum of 3 clubs) RFU structure will be playing themselves every other week. 

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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 14:59
I bow to your superior knowledge (and tennis prowess).
Given Herts and Mddx run a combined league, how is that going to work?
And of course, Colchester lower teams plays in the Eastern Counties leagues, so is it in Essex or EC?

If I were at the RFU, I would have been asking the Hockey Association and KNHB how they manage, I believe both permit lower XI's in the main pyramid, and I think permit clubs to have two teams in one league.  I know CUCBC fine any college where a lower boat finishes above a higher one in the bumps.

But I think I have already made my views on the reorg once or twice on this board.


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Sweeney Delenda Est


Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 15:12
SmilingD
These were the reservations made by the clubs lower down the pyramid who were dead against letting 2nd XV's in, the fact that somehow these teams would be "loaded" with "1st teamers". I'm not sure how that could happen?
Clubs at Level 4 will have a 26 game league structure aswell as a requirement for a 20 man match day squad, Clubs at Level 5 26 games, 18 man squad.
Most, if not all clubs, run their 2nd XV's as a development tool for their younger players, not as an additional way of conquering the world! Most Saturdays are designated league Saturdays so both 1sts and 2nds would be playing on the same day and even on the very odd occasion, if any, when they weren't player welfare and family pressures would dictate time off rather than bolstering the 2nd XV.
There was also a fear that certain leagues would be overloaded with 2nd XV 's but my very rough calculations indicate that number would be more likely  be 1 or 2 per league but that is obviously subject to regional variations
The other concern was that there would be mass relegations to accommodate these teams but if my above calculations are correct these fears also appear unfounded. They were also concerned about getting "hammered" every week. Again unlikely I would suggest if the 2nds go in at the right levels. Good 1st team doesn't always translate to good 2nd team by the way, every club is different


Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 15:53
I cannot understand why we just don't do the old fashion thing, you know sometimes they were the best and it works for years and years, till a load of people at TW2 decided to shell out a load of wonga on a survey or 20.. Over £1m,, jokers!!

Your 1st xv plays team A 
Your 2s play team A 2s 
Your 3s do the same so on so on down the club

If your 1s are away, take the 2s with you, so when you are at home you have both main sides at home as well.

Saves on travel costs.

Think Ill stick an invoice into the RFU for that one .. pretty simple really!!


Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 16:01
Because Scrumtime - some clubs only run 1 team, others run 2,3, 4 etc etc
It worked in the old days I admit but that was before a) Leagues and b) professionalism.
Whilst we're being nostalgic we would always have 1st, 3rds and Colts playing Club A let's say at home whilst 2nds & 4ths would be on a bus away at Club A and vice versa later in the season and it WAS brilliant!
Good luck with the invoice!? 


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 17:06
I think it worked in the mythical past, where summer holidays were three months long and the sky was always blue and England could win at cricket.

As Thatbloke says, in practice it happened a lot less than we remember, for the practical reasons that you could never guarantee clubs had the same number of sides.

Fixture secretaries were on the phone all week searching up a fixture to replace one that had been scratched. And no matter how good your side was, you could never get a fixture against a "senior" club.



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Sweeney Delenda Est


Posted By: SurreyRugby
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 17:27
2nd teams should play in better organised merit table or 2nd team leagues. In my mind no 2nd XV should be inserted at any level in the senior structure, at any level. If these 2nd XV's want league status then create separate club structures. Ealing, London Welsh (when they had a senior team), Saracens, Wasps, London Scottish have all got teams in the league structure. They operate separately and that seems fine to me.


Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 17:39
All of these are Professional clubs with separate amateur set ups not community clubs running 2nd teams. Merit tables may be OK in high density population areas but in low density population areas 2nd teams need to be able to play a mixture of other 2nd teams and lower level 1st teams to get competitive matches.


Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 17:43
But they are then no longer your 2nd XV they are a separate club and though they may share facilities players are not interchangeable until there are only 2 levels between them plus your newly created team have to start at the bottom of the pyramid which is why not many clubs have chosen to go down this route in the past. In our region we have
Stourbridge/Stourbridge Lions
Birmingham Moseley/Moseley Oak
I don't think there are any more??
Just read RedTed post and fully agree 


Posted By: carlos fandango
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 18:12
Cam, from what I remember when my daughter played hockey. A player would be registered to a team in the club at the start of the season and that's where they would remain. There was some chance of movement in exceptional circumstances but once registered in the new team, that's where you had to stay.

Hockey doesn't, obviously, have the same injury rate as rugby, so I'm not sure their system would work.
Agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed on here about the cluster**** the RFU are making of our sport. 


Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 18:21
Thatbloke I was told in Surrey it was only a handful of clubs who wanted to put lower teams in the leagues and they could have been accommodated with the gaps that already exist-no reorganization required. If they want to put lower teams in the league I assume they are sustainable teams and would increase the percentage of matches that actually happen rather than are cried off. Players in club 2nd teams who do not get meaningful fixtures will not leave that club for another one -they will simply give up playing. The decision makes little sense if the aim of the proposed change was to retain/grow the community game. The now farcical Middx/Herts situation just highlights how the RFU should have just lead with the reform rather than offer an opt out clause to pacify Council members.


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 18:36
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

As far as I am aware,
Essex and Leicestershire voted no.
North Midlands and Eastern Counties voted yes.


Kent's clubs voted no by 3 votes but because a 2/3 supermajority was needed to block it, Kent will allow 2nd XVs in


Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 19:30
Marigold
Fully agree it should have been a decision to do it (or not do it) across the board so everyone knew where they stood but IF there IS anything our ruling body is good at is pomegranite-footing around, consulting, discussing beyond belief and still getting it wrong is making a total mess of everything they touch


Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 23:30
Surrey voted strongly No to this. Only 6 Clubs were in favour, including Richmond and Esher. Both Clubs were interested for their 3rd teams as Level 7 would be too low for our 2nd teams, we believe. I thought that because the RFU Council actually voted to allow it to go ahead, we would be alright but I’m told that the CB vote trumps the RFU so Esher’s 3rd team cannot join Level 8 as hoped.

This leaves the whole issue of 2nd team rugby up in the air again so I will be contacting the RFU on behalf of National League Rugby to seek other solutions.


Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2022 at 08:38
This situation is ridiculous !!!!!yet again our 2nd has had the opposition cancell at the last minute Friday evening. So that's two weeks in a row now.
Rugby Union must be the only game whose governing body doesn't think that the first team is only as strong as its seconds. Players don't join a rugby to 'Not Play Rugby'


Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2022 at 10:19
That's exactly why we've applied to join the ECC - think we've had 7 or 8 teams cry-off fixtures against us and even if you get a bit of notice it's very difficult to pick up a "pool" friendly as most teams are committed to their own league fixtures. 1 or 2 games a month is no use to anyone let alone for young players that you are trying to develop into future 1st team players


Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2022 at 18:43
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Surrey voted strongly No to this. Only 6 Clubs were in favour, including Richmond and Esher. Both Clubs were interested for their 3rd teams as Level 7 would be too low for our 2nd teams, we believe. I thought that because the RFU Council actually voted to allow it to go ahead, we would be alright but I’m told that the CB vote trumps the RFU so Esher’s 3rd team cannot join Level 8 as hoped.

This leaves the whole issue of 2nd team rugby up in the air again so I will be contacting the RFU on behalf of National League Rugby to seek other solutions.
Esher man contacting the RFU on behalf of NLR. Halliford AKA Mr. Inverdale.


Posted By: WESTCOMBE RANGER
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 11:35
Slight change in tack but here is an interesting link I came across with the chairman of Sevenoaks being interviewed.

https://www.kentlive.news/sport/other-sport/sevenoaks-rfc-honing-history-big-6783413" rel="nofollow - https://www.kentlive.news/sport/other-sport/sevenoaks-rfc-honing-history-big-6783413

I think some of the Sevenoaks faithful on here should give him a clue as to how things are likely to pan out.  Love his last words, they did make me larffff
.
Ranger
 


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The older I get, the better I was.


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 11:36
CS Stags 1863 managed to play yesterday, which is good for North Walsham, who move into third, but are now two points behind Blackburn.

Four games to go and lots of rugby to play.


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Sweeney Delenda Est


Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 11:45
I think Halliford talks to Mr Inverdale on a daily basis.

Halliford, you're going to have to wait 3 years before you can talk to them. Remember the FCS "commission" stated that the structure that comes in to place for 22/23 will not be subject to change for 3 years. Otherwise we are going down the Putin School of Politics route............. keep trying to change things until you get want you want.


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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!


Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 12:47
I have been gathering info for NLR on 2nd XV rugby for some years. We held off to see what would happen with this proposal. Now we are clear that there is no real consensus on lower teams joining the League structure, it is time for NLR to look at alternatives which provide competitive 2nd XV rugby. Entry into the main Leagues was never going to suit the stronger Clubs at Levels 2-4 anyway, so we need to see what no-cost alternatives are possible.


Posted By: Jasper99
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 13:05
I'm not sure that the assumption that entering into main leagues won't suit stronger clubs at level 2-4 is correct.

I'll cite Clifton as an example. A team fighting for promotion to level 3. Their 2s couldn't enter the league system within Somerset so went to Gloucester who accepted them in Gloucester Premier (Level 8). After a flurry of wins, they now sit in 2nd place having lost 3 games. It is not clear that they are going to win a level 8 league!

The reality is that the higher you move up the pyramid the more  injury and availability issues impact first team playing numbers and ultimately impact  your 2nd or 3rd team. If Clifton were South Easterly I'm sure they could pick up fixtures outside of the league, but in the SW that is not the case. 

The league structure provides at the very least a fixture list and that may well be more challenging than first thought.

I know from experience that Cinderford and Taunton whose 2s are not in the pyramid system have struggled to provide rugby for those players leaving weeks without rugby and the prospect of playing the same opposition 4-6 times.

The key here is the fixture list and the access to giving players game time. That is everything.


Posted By: PM009
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 13:07
Originally posted by WESTCOMBE RANGER WESTCOMBE RANGER wrote:

Slight change in tack but here is an interesting link I came across with the chairman of Sevenoaks being interviewed.

https://www.kentlive.news/sport/other-sport/sevenoaks-rfc-honing-history-big-6783413" rel="nofollow - https://www.kentlive.news/sport/other-sport/sevenoaks-rfc-honing-history-big-6783413

I think some of the Sevenoaks faithful on here should give him a clue as to how things are likely to pan out.  Love his last words, they did make me larffff
.
Ranger
 

LOL


Posted By: Kentishman
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 15:47
Ranger, is your problem that you pay a ridiculous salary to your Director of Rugby. BTW that makes me larff! Or is it that several of Combes former players (who you used to pay substantial wages) have gone to Sevenoaks for no money at all? Having been part of both clubs I see one with a fantastic set up, thriving youth section and huge numbers at senior training. The other club boast a junior set up where numerous age groups have folded over recent years, money raised by the juniors is being spent on senior player salaries and the best team in the club is the vets. Not surprising when you consider how great the club used to be. I can’t wait to play for them against Sevenoaks in the vets final. But I tell you now, I won’t be expecting any of the 1st team to come and watch. They don’t even know we exist. Stop throwing your sh*t towards Sevenoaks and concentrate on getting our once great club back to where it once was. You can start by employing a club man as DOR and focussing time and money on the juniors. Oh wait I have said all this before and it fell on deaf ears then!


Posted By: SurreyRugby
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 21:31
Well said Kentish man.i am tired of seeing money wasted on mediocre rugby players. Dorking are very similar to sevenoaks and I hope both clubs are successful this season. Dorking played Brighton the other day and apparently all the brighton boys get paid. What a waste of money. Looking fwd to a great game in 2 weeks time.


Posted By: Sir_Q
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 21:55
Finally we can agree on something, Dorking and Sevenoaks are very similar, if you know what I mean WinkWink


Posted By: SurreyRugby
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 22:14
Ha ha good one.


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 22:31
Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

Well said Kentish man.i am tired of seeing money wasted on mediocre rugby players. Dorking are very similar to sevenoaks and I hope both clubs are successful this season. Dorking played Brighton the other day and apparently all the brighton boys get paid. What a waste of money. Looking fwd to a great game in 2 weeks time.


I suspect Dorking pay some of their players at least.

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RAID ON


Posted By: Kentishman
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 06:40
What a ridiculous comment. Why assume that Dorking pay? Just because a team is successful doesn’t mean that they have to pay to achieve their success. Dorking are an example of a well run club.


Posted By: Happy
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 07:32
A re-read of RFU regulation 7 and Part A material benefit FAQs Is always useful 



Posted By: HAVANT TONY
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 09:11
So if Dorking dont pay then I can only wonder why Harry Anscombe who dropped a league mid season and joined Dorking from Worthing a Nat 2 side(who pay all of their players) ?
I know Brockham is a lovely part of the world but I dont reckon he joined for the scenery😂


Posted By: PM009
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 09:57
Originally posted by HAVANT TONY HAVANT TONY wrote:

So if Dorking dont pay then I can only wonder why Harry Anscombe who dropped a league mid season and joined Dorking from Worthing a Nat 2 side(who pay all of their players) ?
I know Brockham is a lovely part of the world but I dont reckon he joined for the scenery😂

Along with Henry Birch. Some serious negotiating skills by Dorking getting them both in mid season for nothing Clap


Posted By: Kentish Man
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 10:29
PM009  I understand that Henry Birch has joined Dorking as forwards coach after the departure of Matt Higginns and has subbed a couple of times for them


Posted By: PM009
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 11:27
Originally posted by Kentish Man Kentish Man wrote:

PM009  I understand that Henry Birch has joined Dorking as forwards coach after the departure of Matt Higginns and has subbed a couple of times for them

I know he is/was a CRC for Rural Surrey so wouldn’t be surprised. Interesting model, pay him to coach but he plays for free LOL


Posted By: Happy
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 11:35
Makes more sense than coming from the other side of the world in a pandemic for absolutely nothing to play rugby LOL


Posted By: HAVANT TONY
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 11:45
Originally posted by Kentish Man Kentish Man wrote:

PM009  I understand that Henry Birch has joined Dorking as forwards coach after the departure of Matt Higginns and has subbed a couple of times for them

Is Harry Anscombe a coach and occasional  sub as well ?🙄


Posted By: Vuarnet
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 11:56
Hi Tony

Its Henry Anscombe. He had unfortunately suffered an injury pre-season which may explain his appearance of late.

Best, Vuarnet 


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Allez les bleus!


Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 12:03
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

Well said Kentish man.i am tired of seeing money wasted on mediocre rugby players. Dorking are very similar to sevenoaks and I hope both clubs are successful this season. Dorking played Brighton the other day and apparently all the brighton boys get paid. What a waste of money. Looking fwd to a great game in 2 weeks time.


I suspect Dorking pay some of their players at least.

They have 2 player/coaches + 1 player who does community coaching.



Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 12:05
Originally posted by PM009 PM009 wrote:

Originally posted by HAVANT TONY HAVANT TONY wrote:

So if Dorking dont pay then I can only wonder why Harry Anscombe who dropped a league mid season and joined Dorking from Worthing a Nat 2 side(who pay all of their players) ?
I know Brockham is a lovely part of the world but I dont reckon he joined for the scenery😂

Along with Henry Birch. Some serious negotiating skills by Dorking getting them both in mid season for nothing Clap

From what i understand Henry Birch didn't see eye to eye with Jordan Turner-Hall.


Posted By: HAVANT TONY
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 12:34
Originally posted by Vuarnet Vuarnet wrote:

Hi Tony

Its Henry Anscombe. He had unfortunately suffered an injury pre-season which may explain his appearance of late.

Best, Vuarnet 

Hi VUARNET 
Long time no hear!
Hows life in level 6, the forum has died a death in your league, shame as it used to be quite fun?
Anyway... Harry or Henry it'll still say H.Anscombe on his brown envelope😂😂😂


Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 12:35
Clap
Originally posted by Kentishman Kentishman wrote:

What a ridiculous comment. Why assume that Dorking pay? Just because a team is successful doesn’t mean that they have to pay to achieve their success. Dorking are an example of a well run club.

ClapClap


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Fezantplucker


Posted By: Vuarnet
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 12:39
Hi Tony

I still look on more in hope than expectation! Hoping to bump into Dickon at season close but you are right , it was a bit of fun and I miss your slant on things, but its actually a white, embossed , envelope....

Best, Vuarnet


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Allez les bleus!


Posted By: SurreyRugby
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 13:25
Havant Tony is ill informed and guessing. A lot of throwaway comments for success, are you must be paying your players!

Dropout22, PM009 and Kentish Man are very well informed and are correct.

I will add if any of Sevenoaks, Dorking or North Walsham are promoted, the challenge of staying up becomes a lot more difficult if you do not play players. They kind of expect it at that level.

Dorking were promoted to Nat 2 South approx 6 years ago. Did brilliantly in the first season and finished 4th. Because they DID NOT PAY (and never have), a number of players left to joining Richmond, Rosslyn Park etc to gain a better level. We were sad to see them go, but you have to wish your best players the best of luck. In the 2nd season, we were relegated. Best you stay with your financial model. Im proud of the way Dorking behave and if we play at level 5 or lower to maintain our community model, then so be it!





Posted By: Happy
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 13:40
It's not only about "paying" it's also material benefits something very often overlooked when saying we've never paid 


Posted By: HAVANT TONY
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 14:10
SURREY RUGBY
my information  came from mr H. Anscombe himself
He used to be  Chichester player and as "Chi" is only 8 miles up the road from us a few of our players know him well and he told them Dorking OUTBID another club for his services!!!
I suggest you ask him next time you see him and let me know if it is just a rumour?


Posted By: SurreyRugby
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 15:42
As dorking have a better fly half playing at centre, the offer of better playing facilities, coaching and teamwork probably swayed him. He is good, but not as good matt noble.


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 15:55
Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

As dorking have a better fly half playing at centre, the offer of better playing facilities, coaching and teamwork probably swayed him. He is good, but not as good matt noble.


Dorking have better playing facilities than Worthing - are you serious?



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RAID ON


Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 16:32
Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

Havant Tony is ill informed and guessing. A lot of throwaway comments for success, are you must be paying your players!

Dropout22, PM009 and Kentish Man are very well informed and are correct.

I will add if any of Sevenoaks, Dorking or North Walsham are promoted, the challenge of staying up becomes a lot more difficult if you do not play players. They kind of expect it at that level.

Dorking were promoted to Nat 2 South approx 6 years ago. Did brilliantly in the first season and finished 4th. Because they DID NOT PAY (and never have), a number of players left to joining Richmond, Rosslyn Park etc to gain a better level. We were sad to see them go, but you have to wish your best players the best of luck. In the 2nd season, we were relegated. Best you stay with your financial model. Im proud of the way Dorking behave and if we play at level 5 or lower to maintain our community model, then so be it!



Well said Surrey Rugby. And in our 2nd season at L4 when we were relegated (3rd from bottom) there were other mitigating circumstances. We had a few that moved on as you say, but also had several retire including our excellent now DOR Armand Roux. Additionally the 'eyes' at L4 had watched their videos and were more prepared after our storming 1st season. We also suffered from lots of longish term injuries and fell short in our strength in depth. Not complaining but we are in a much better place now under Armands 'One Club' ethos with a very strong 2nd team knocking on the door and the gap in comparative quality between 1,s and 2,s has narrowed considerably IMO. With the benefit of our club development including a 'Super state of art Gym' with a progressive strength and conditioning regime open to allcomers, it is no surprise to me that DRFC are ready to take up the challenge of L4 rugby again (God willing). In our Centenary Year it would be the most appropriate timing. Hardly surprising we are attracting quality ambitious players from all areas.   
 



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Fezantplucker


Posted By: PM009
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 16:53
Originally posted by FEZ ANT PLUCKER FEZ ANT PLUCKER wrote:

Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

Havant Tony is ill informed and guessing. A lot of throwaway comments for success, are you must be paying your players!

Dropout22, PM009 and Kentish Man are very well informed and are correct.

I will add if any of Sevenoaks, Dorking or North Walsham are promoted, the challenge of staying up becomes a lot more difficult if you do not play players. They kind of expect it at that level.

Dorking were promoted to Nat 2 South approx 6 years ago. Did brilliantly in the first season and finished 4th. Because they DID NOT PAY (and never have), a number of players left to joining Richmond, Rosslyn Park etc to gain a better level. We were sad to see them go, but you have to wish your best players the best of luck. In the 2nd season, we were relegated. Best you stay with your financial model. Im proud of the way Dorking behave and if we play at level 5 or lower to maintain our community model, then so be it!



Well said Surrey Rugby. And in our 2nd season at L4 when we were relegated (3rd from bottom) there were other mitigating circumstances. We had a few that moved on as you say, but also had several retire including our excellent now DOR Armand Roux. Additionally the 'eyes' at L4 had watched their videos and were more prepared after our storming 1st season. We also suffered from lots of longish term injuries and fell short in our strength in depth. Not complaining but we are in a much better place now under Armands 'One Club' ethos with a very strong 2nd team knocking on the door and the gap in comparative quality between 1,s and 2,s has narrowed considerably IMO. With the benefit of our club development including a 'Super state of art Gym' with a progressive strength and conditioning regime open to allcomers, it is no surprise to me that DRFC are ready to take up the challenge of L4 rugby again (God willing). In our Centenary Year it would be the most appropriate timing. Hardly surprising we are attracting quality ambitious players from all areas.   
 


100odd mile round trip 3 x a week for zero material benefit, must be some gym!!!


Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 16:55
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

As dorking have a better fly half playing at centre, the offer of better playing facilities, coaching and teamwork probably swayed him. He is good, but not as good matt noble.


Dorking have better playing facilities than Worthing - are you serious?

Raider. Is there any truth in the rumour that Messrs Birch, Anscombe, and Spurgeon left Worthing because your DOR upset them and brought in young players from Harlequins Academy whom he favoured. I dont know so I am just asking, but the grapevine of rugby gossip continues to thrive. I am just trying to understand why they left Worthing a L4 club to join Dorking who aspire to be a L4 club again.


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Fezantplucker


Posted By: SurreyRugby
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 17:34
Raider. We all see beauty in different places. There will those that think Elle MacPherson is plain and ugly. Others will see Boris Johnson as a sex symbol. Each to their own Raider. all the best....great banter - SR


Posted By: HAVANT TONY
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 18:15
An absolute ton of waffling gone on without the real question being answered I reckon😴


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 19:55
Originally posted by FEZ ANT PLUCKER FEZ ANT PLUCKER wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

As dorking have a better fly half playing at centre, the offer of better playing facilities, coaching and teamwork probably swayed him. He is good, but not as good matt noble.


Dorking have better playing facilities than Worthing - are you serious?


Raider. Is there any truth in the rumour that Messrs Birch, Anscombe, and Spurgeon left Worthing because your DOR upset them and brought in young players from Harlequins Academy whom he favoured. I dont know so I am just asking, but the grapevine of rugby gossip continues to thrive. I am just trying to understand why they left Worthing a L4 club to join Dorking who aspire to be a L4 club again.


I have no idea if your assumption as to why the 3 named players left Worthing for Dorking (although in Spurgeon's case he played a couple of games having retired through injury several years ago).

As I understand it When a Premiership side makes Academy players available they need to play - this may be every week or only irregularity but when available the Premiership side expects them to be picked.   (please note - this is not an official response just my personal understanding)

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RAID ON


Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 11:06
Originally posted by dropout22 dropout22 wrote:

Originally posted by PM009 PM009 wrote:

Originally posted by HAVANT TONY HAVANT TONY wrote:

So if Dorking dont pay then I can only wonder why Harry Anscombe who dropped a league mid season and joined Dorking from Worthing a Nat 2 side(who pay all of their players) ?
I know Brockham is a lovely part of the world but I dont reckon he joined for the scenery😂

Along with Henry Birch. Some serious negotiating skills by Dorking getting them both in mid season for nothing Clap

From what i understand Henry Birch didn't see eye to eye with Jordan Turner-Hall.

Dropout22. Can you enlarge on your comment as to why said players left Worthing to move to Dorking?  Raider has no idea and nor do I.


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Fezantplucker


Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 13:01
So i understood Henry Birch didnt get on with Jordan Turner Hall. This was told to me by a Dorking player.

Speaking to Worthing players - I understood Henry Anscombe was in and out of the squad (i didnt check up on this with stats) - thus he wasn't content at Worthing and such moved to Dorking. 

I have no idea for the last player? 

Henry birch is player/forwards coach at the club now. After hearing a club at Level 6 pay their head coach £15k a year - i'm sure his role at the club isn't without good remuneration. 

Dorking has a fabulous location, good home support and a stable business set/up. Not to mention first class s&c and physio support. This is not too say Worthing don't, but Dorking does have a very good club set/up for the level that i'm sure attracts players.


Posted By: FEZ ANT PLUCKER
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 18:26
Thanks Dropout22
Pretty much as I understood the situation. Henry Birch came to us first and as an RFU regional coach he joined us as Forwards coach replacing Matt Higgins as someone has already mentioned. I just didnt know his reason for leaving Worthing, however he may have influenced Anscombe and Spurgeon as they followed soon after. Maybe they had separate unconnected reasons for the move.  


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Fezantplucker


Posted By: Jasper99
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 19:57
TBH I don't give a pheasant for Dorking and any financial illusions. I am however very interested in 2nd team rugby and why a club would not want to allow those teams into the league structure. NIMBYism or a genuine arguable reason?


Posted By: MikeGC
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 22:18
No idea what the situation is going to be like in the area you are discussing but after a quick look the proposal for Premier North appears to be OK-ish


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 07:35
Originally posted by Jasper99 Jasper99 wrote:

TBH I don't give a pheasant for Dorking and any financial illusions. I am however very interested in 2nd team rugby and why a club would not want to allow those teams into the league structure. NIMBYism or a genuine arguable reason?
My understanding is that lower league clubs fear that players would rather be part of the set-up at a higher-level club, playing mainly 2nd XV rugby but training with the 1st team squad and with a possibility (however small) of playing national league rugby, than registered with a level 7/8 club.  It might not apply in all areas of the country, but in Middlesex & Surrey - where there are a lot of clubs playing at level 3-6 - it's a worry for the lower clubs who are already struggling to put out a competitive team.


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 13:01
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Jasper99 Jasper99 wrote:

TBH I don't give a pheasant for Dorking and any financial illusions. I am however very interested in 2nd team rugby and why a club would not want to allow those teams into the league structure. NIMBYism or a genuine arguable reason?

My understanding is that lower league clubs fear that players would rather be part of the set-up at a higher-level club, playing mainly 2nd XV rugby but training with the 1st team squad and with a possibility (however small) of playing national league rugby, than registered with a level 7/8 club.  It might not apply in all areas of the country, but in Middlesex & Surrey - where there are a lot of clubs playing at level 3-6 - it's a worry for the lower clubs who are already struggling to put out a competitive team.


I would have thought level 7/8 was too low for a number of 2nd teams (and some 3rd teams - Richmond?)

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RAID ON


Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 13:25
OK, it's just an example.  I thought the whole point was putting 2nd XVs into county leagues, which is L8.  But the principle remains the same.


Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 20:05
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Jasper99 Jasper99 wrote:

TBH I don't give a pheasant for Dorking and any financial illusions. I am however very interested in 2nd team rugby and why a club would not want to allow those teams into the league structure. NIMBYism or a genuine arguable reason?

My understanding is that lower league clubs fear that players would rather be part of the set-up at a higher-level club, playing mainly 2nd XV rugby but training with the 1st team squad and with a possibility (however small) of playing national league rugby, than registered with a level 7/8 club.  It might not apply in all areas of the country, but in Middlesex & Surrey - where there are a lot of clubs playing at level 3-6 - it's a worry for the lower clubs who are already struggling to put out a competitive team.


I would have thought level 7/8 was too low for a number of 2nd teams (and some 3rd teams - Richmond?)

Richmond 4th XV beat the Old Alleynians 1st XV (Level 7) 44-10 back in september so you'd be correct.


Posted By: Jasper99
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 22:00
Clifton beat Taunton 2s pre-season. Taunton 2s put 30 on the Navy, were competitive v Hartbury Uni side, plus would match a lot of level 5 sides.
Clifton have lost 3 games at level 9!! Level 3 and 4 rugby is clearly very attritional on squad players.


Posted By: SurreyRugby
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 07:56
In my experience. Rarely do first team squad players at national league level actually play for the 2nd team. Keep 2nd teams in merit leagues. If admitted they will muck up the current system.


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 11:20
Originally posted by Jasper99 Jasper99 wrote:

Clifton beat Taunton 2s pre-season. Taunton 2s put 30 on the Navy, were competitive v Hartbury Uni side, plus would match a lot of level 5 sides.
Clifton have lost 3 games at level 9!! Level 3 and 4 rugby is clearly very attritional on squad players.


I would totally agree, it isn't unusual for clubs to have 10 or more out injured at some stage in the season.

I would think a team needs 30-35 players capable of level 3/4 for a successful season.

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RAID ON


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2022 at 11:21
Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

In my experience. Rarely do first team squad players at national league level actually play for the 2nd team. Keep 2nd teams in merit leagues. If admitted they will muck up the current system.


However, if rugby players are anything like cricketers the younger players of today are only interested in playing competitive league games.

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RAID ON


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2022 at 08:03
Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

In my experience. Rarely do first team squad players at national league level actually play for the 2nd team. Keep 2nd teams in merit leagues. If admitted they will muck up the current system.

If they are to be admitted, I would say add a new bottom league to the county leagues and stick all the 2nd XVs in there so they don't compete against the smaller clubs until a year later. It's not perfect but at least it delays any mucking up of the system and stops them reaching the regional leagues for at least 3-4 years.


Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2022 at 09:56
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by SurreyRugby SurreyRugby wrote:

In my experience. Rarely do first team squad players at national league level actually play for the 2nd team. Keep 2nd teams in merit leagues. If admitted they will muck up the current system.


If they are to be admitted, I would say add a new bottom league to the county leagues and stick all the 2nd XVs in there so they don't compete against the smaller clubs until a year later. It's not perfect but at least it delays any mucking up of the system and stops them reaching the regional leagues for at least 3-4 years.


I suppose that is one way of stopping clubs entering 2nd teams in the league structures - many are going to be too strong at level 7/8 let alone wasting their time starting at level 11/12.

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RAID ON


Posted By: Hare today!
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2022 at 12:06
[/QUOTE] I suppose that is one way of stopping clubs entering 2nd teams in the league structures - many are going to be too strong at level 7/8 let alone wasting their time starting at level 11/12.[/QUOTE]

Many will be, which is why it's laughable that they have now introduced a ceiling at L7 so any lower XV entering the ECC will not be able to progress higher than L7 Confused


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2022 at 12:31
Originally posted by Hare today! Hare today! wrote:

[/QUOTE] I
I suppose that is one way of stopping clubs entering 2nd teams in the league structures - many are going to be too strong at level 7/8 let alone wasting their time starting at level 11/12.[/QUOTE]

Many will be, which is why it's laughable that they have now introduced a ceiling at L7 so any lower XV entering the ECC will not be able to progress higher than L7 Confused
[/QUOTE]

And I hope they don't get involved in the RFU cups.



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