CVC - Rugby Pioneers or Profiteer?
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Forum Name: The Championship
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Topic: CVC - Rugby Pioneers or Profiteer?
Posted By: Brizzer
Subject: CVC - Rugby Pioneers or Profiteer?
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2020 at 18:22
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I have just read an interesting article saying that not only is the CVC £300m purchase of 14% of the 6 nations due to go through in weeks, but that they are also planning a Club Rugby World Cup(reported in the Times I believe). If these are true, what will it mean for rugby as we know it? Will it lead to a ‘Super League’? Where would that leave club rugby in England? Especially in the PL which CVC already have a large holding in. One thing is for sure, PE companies such as CVC (and they are one of the largest) do not invest into sports for fun or emotionally, they do so for profit alone. |
Replies:
Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2020 at 18:35
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You are spot on with final sentence so I must conclude that CVC will attempt to "sweat" its asset(s) in rue PE style. Problem is that International rugby followed in the N Hemisphere by Champions Cup remain the big draws ( later rounds in the case of the CC). The Prem does attract decent crows particularly for local derbies but is the standard good enough? Having watched a run of poor or one sided games the cost ( to a casual supporter) of £30-60 is probably too much. Given the issues that have emerged of late ( financial problems with the RFU and SRFU) I'm not holding my breath. As a mater of interest how financially sound are the Welsh,Irish,french and Italian Unions? |
Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 08:44
| The Premiership has been poor value this year to many one sided games Exeter v Northampton for example. With the Saracens fiasco and the England World Cup hangover the season seems to be dead already. The RFU did not help with its timing of the announcement that it wants to kill off the Championship. All in All the games future is at stake. |
Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 10:13
If they get their way, and we get ring fencing, every season will produce a lot of meaningless games.
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stadium wrote:Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 10:35
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Having watched a fair number of SANZAR matches, which are of a high standard, I consider international club rugby is not a bad idea. It IS highly commercialised. Money talks and it's idle to pretend it doesn't. However the players have to come from somewhere, and penny pinching at lower levels is very shortsighted. ------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 10:52
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So how would a club WC look? 2 clubs each from NZ, Aus, SA, Eng, Fra, Wal, Ire & Sco? I'm not so sure that any other leagues would be strong enough, maybe Italy. That would give 16 clubs, I should imagine in pools of 4 with the winners making up the semi's. Or would they use the European Cup as a qualification tournament? Quite like the idea of the tournament in principal....when will they be able to fit it in? |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 11:20
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More likely four each from England, France, Pro14 and Super rugby so there is actual competition for places. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 11:54
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Initial competition within each country then quarter finals etc between the top teams. A point system that favours try scoring. Good idea to examine how Super rugby does it. They have an Argentinean club and a Japanese one in addition to SA NZ and Australia. ------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 11:58
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CVC are in it to make money and the game at the top level will change in order to allow the CVC a return on their investment. Ticket prices will rise, broadcasting deals will grow and you will see the end of (most?) 6 Nations games on free to air TV; new tournaments will be created playing in venues willing to pay high prices to host them. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 12:38
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Free to air will be a thing of the past, like cricket.
------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 13:16
| An opportunity for the Championship on free to air then? |
Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 13:42
Almost certainly not, because as with RL, this will just herald the top tier pulling even further away, and lead to a further collapse in interest in the lower tiers. For this to work would take massive investment, and at the top level that means ringfencing, franchising or both, because otherwise no one would be daft enough to spend the money. The future is probably going to be not unlike the NRL, with multiple feeder clubs for each franchise. There will be interest in watching the feeders, but it will be open and clear that that's what they are. F1 is still trying to recover from its experience with CVC by the way. In some ways we're going back to the old amateur days - a recognised top tier, with a closed fixture list, and everyone else a junior club that knows their place and asks "how high?" when told by a "senior" club to jump. Welcome to 1970. ------------- keep the faith |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 13:57
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I think we will see an awful lot of things don "for the fans" by which of course they do nto mean "fans" like us but any random bye-blow who can be persuaded to part with money in exchange for something that may or may not be sport. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 14:39
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I think that we could certainly see the birth of a 'super league' with franchised clubs. We already have these in place across the UK with the exception of England. The clubs then feed into the franchise as already stated. I can see pro's on the one hand, but lots and lots of cons on the other. If you invite big money into your sport, then the big money will want to take over and get big returns regardless of how they do it. |
Posted By: The Perfect Ten
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 14:56
| I can't see any French club giving up on the Top 14 any time soon. For most of them winning that appears to be more important than winning the Champions Cup. |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 15:01
Agreed, also this is what will happen when the Premiership is ring-fenced. If you are in the bottom 3 or 4 after halfway there will be no incentive to either field best teams or give 100%. Interest will be lost, attendances will fall and eventually players will be paid less. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Penda
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 17:22
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The RFU should drastically cut the money it puts into the Premiership. £70m I believe, goes into professional rugby from the RFU. Why should the community game lose money to effectively subsidise the profits of the likes of CVC? If the PRL wants to get into bed with commercial parasites like CVC let it. But not at the expense of the rest of the game. You only have to look at what CVC did to Formula 1. There isn't a long enough bargepole. |
Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 17:46
Well said, spot on. The RFU have completely lost touch with what they are there for.
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Posted By: Pirate Pig
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 17:59
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I think a world league is a long way off mainly due to the difficulties in agreeing a suitable playing season. I can see a European league happening in the short term with the winners of that league playing the winners of the Super 15 in a world club championship.
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Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 20:05
| Oddly enough, I wonder if the CVC wont accidentally level the playing field . After the initial infusion is p*ssed away, then the prem clubs will all get 30%less per year. CVC says that they will grow revenues, but investors want return on investment. |
Posted By: Whistle watcher
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 10:28
The Kerry Packer of rugby.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 12:59
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No Kerry Packer offered the Australian Board money to show tests and was turned down. He then organised a rebel tour and ensured the players got more of the TV money (which previously had been going to blazers or down the drain. He also revolutionised coverage - being the first to have a camera at both ends of the pitch. He was after all primarily a TV man. And then day night games so working australians could watch - either at the match or as he prefered on TV. So in the end he did a lot of good for the game. CVC did nothing to the format of F! - indeed they left Bernie in charge. Bernie was initially great for the sport. But went on far too long. Not sure what if anything they would do for rugby. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: One For The Ditch
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2020 at 14:55
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Very simple answer = Profiteer Impact on Grass Roots might be positive with "CVC" marketing spend allowing greater exposure to the game resulting in more players joining and less leaving therefore more 2nd, 3rd and Vets XVs......who knows? On that note, Friday early doors beckons
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Posted By: Baggins
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 12:06
Seems a tad optimistic considering the impact of paywalls and vulture capitalists like CVC on other sports. ------------- Propping up the board |
Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 13:17
Just about spot on with everything in this post! 
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Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 15:44
| And there we have it. In the Times today, we could be seeing the end of free to view 6 Nations (so no BBC or ITV), but whether that means just Sky (or equivalent) or literally PTV like boxing, remains to be seen. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 15:55
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CVC are only interested in revenue not reach. And they are interested in maximizing revenue in the short term. But they need to make back everything they have invensted and more in the next 3-5 years. Then they will sell it on - they will then move the money on to the next investment. They do not care what happens after they sell the investment on, that is someone else's problem. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 16:09
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This is still a minority sport and the RFU need to be very careful because it is always possible that there could be a grassroots rebellion? I agree that the Prem should NOT be supported BUT there are a number of key issues to consider. Promising players will be identified by the time they are 16 and introduced into a selection process designed to produce future internationals and Prem players 'cos that is where the money is. Those who fall by the wayside ( and there will be many) may then just give up. It is all serious stuff. |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 16:59
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I'm not sure I can express it better than Alan Tyers' final para in today's Torygraph: Rugby need only examine the example of cricket post-2005 and
post-Channel 4 if it wants a road map to irrelevance for a great sport that was
once part of our national life. You would rate it completely unthinkable that
any sport could cut its own throat in such a fashion, but then you call to mind
the sort of people who rise to the top of sports administration and it starts
to make a certain sort of sense, as well as making you feel distinctly ill. |
Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2020 at 18:38
Absolutely spot on Bigmal. The normal lifespan of a PE investment is typically 5 years and they will be looking for an absolute minimum ROI of 50% and that will not be seen as huge. So, they will look to move very quickly to get revenues up so that they have some value to sell on. They won’t care where those revenues come from. If they get a good viewing deal signed they will probably be out before it matures. |
Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2020 at 14:00
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Exactly right - I'm not saying that ALL PE outfits are bad but in the case of rugby professionalism is dividing the game. As an aside ( and relevant to the identification of prospects at 16 ) I note that S Africa appear to have a huge problem with performance/size enhancing drugs if article on BBC website anything to go by. I know there are issues within the UK and beyond but it is a worrying trend which is likely to put people off playing recreationally. Like many posting on this forum I played for many years straight from school mainly at 2nd/3rd team level which was most enjoyable especially when coaching and fitness training extended down to the lower teams. I just don't see that level anymore when I watch games at clubs below the National level. Is there a possibility that this initiative will drive clubs to form breakaway leagues similar to the set up in Lancashire? |
Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2020 at 14:05
Sports administration has emerged as a separate profession but unfortunately without the requisite safeguards - you just have to read about recent issues in the athletics, cycling, swimming and other minority sports to see where this is going. |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2020 at 18:50
| The Times yesterday said CVC's stake in 6N will be around 15% which gives them the same as each of the six nations, which hopefully means those concerned can 'grow a pair' and express their opposition to the game leaving free-to-air TV after March 2021... |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2020 at 19:15
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Oh look a squadron of flying pigs. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2020 at 19:13
The problem is that this subject will form part of the discussions for the purchase, along the lines of: ‘We have 300 million of your British pounds that we are willing to split between you for 1 7th of your business, on the proviso that all potential TV revenues are maximized’ Looking at the state of the finances in the various RFU’s, I can’t see any of them resisting the pull of hard cash. |
Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2020 at 19:38
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The current emergency could ( should) be concentrating a few minds given the potential for lost revenue. All those salaries still have to be paid at the RFU.
BTW on the subject of sports administration canoeing is under the spotlight for bullying. Big injection of cash from Sport England mind!
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Posted By: Shamrose
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2020 at 10:14
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I think you can answer this question by looking at the F1 Grand Prix Australia Teams from all over the world, including Italy have flown in and the Grand Prix will go ahead regardless Says it all about CVC |
Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2020 at 13:24
| CVC sold Formula 1 in 2017. |
Posted By: Shamrose
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2020 at 14:47
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You are totally correct Sorry all
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2020 at 14:50
Or possibly not as McLaren have pulled out. Very surprised Australian authorities even considered letting it go ahead bearing in mind their strict contraband rules. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2020 at 18:12
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They haven’t, it is off now. Also, I see that 3 Leicester City players are self isolating, the football must be close to being suspended. Which must mean that rugby has to as well. It is a contact sport after all. It is a crazy world that we live in, but the RFU must now be concentrating on emergency measures to keep clubs afloat if revenue streams are interrupted. This will challenge them. |