Real clubs or just loan facility
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Forum Name: The Championship
Forum Description: Discuss the 12 clubs forming the English Championship.
URL: http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=18624
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Topic: Real clubs or just loan facility
Posted By: Scrumtime
Subject: Real clubs or just loan facility
Date Posted: 22 May 2021 at 07:57
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Taking up the topic from Round 10: What are clubs in the championship now becoming? Are they real clubs, with their own players or just a loan facility for the big boys? You look at the Championship over the last 3 months. We all agree, that it's great to have clubs back and playing, but are these real rugby clubs as we know it? Until this weekend we were devoid of supporters, but who have they have been watching via the Saturday stream? This is not a slight or dig at any club, but has the Championship just turned into a vehicle for the use of Premiership clubs as they wish? You can go through the list. Bedfords tie in or up with Northampton Saints, its not a Bedford side, its a side dictated to by Northampton, yet with no relegation this season, why are Bedford not blooding home grown younger players, it does not matter if you have 4 19 year olds in the side, you cannot go up or down. You can go down the list, Ampthill with Saracens and Wasps, Hartpury with Gloucester, Coventry with various clubs, although I hear a tie up along the lines of Bedford will be happening to them and Wasps over the summer. Jersey and Cornish Pirates are even dipping into Wales for players. Richmond, its not the Richmond side that won National 1 and earned the right to play in the second tier. Ealing, Ealing are so rich they can even afford to loan players out to fellow clubs in the Championship, how must that feel to a player. You are contracted to Ealing and train there all week, only to be told that whatever happens you are not going to make the side and you're out on loan to a fellow club in the same league for a few months, because we can afford to do that! Has the Championship changed for good? With the CVC money going around the Premiership and the reduction in what the RFU have given the Championship, has the landscape changed? You have no A league games this season and almost certainly none next, yet with the money that the Premiership clubs have (From cvc and tv) they can afford to run squads of 50+ but unable to give all the players the chance. Yet they are quite happy to run at a loss year to year. So why not cut the squad size down, let people play in the Championship and get picked up that way if they are good enough. Not hoover up everything you can in a hope that you might have not missed one diamond. So the easy route, no matter what cost to club or player, is send them out on loan, but again we ask, at what cost? The Championship is not a league of tier 2 clubs. It's not a Bedford side that they raised all that money to watch. It's not a Hartpury, Ampthill or Richmond side that did the hard work in gaining promotion to the Championship from National one. Its not a tier two Coventry side. Somebody needs to get hold go the Championship and limit the number of loans/DRs each side can play, otherwise soon, very soon every club in it will be in an arms race of who they can tie up with for the season and the clubs identity will be lost for every, they will be a second xv and used at big brothers will, with players being dropped in and out as and when the bigger clubs feel like it. As said, the is not a slight on any club, but it has to be addressed and addressed very quickly, otherwise clubs and Championship rugby as we knew it, will be gone for good! |
Replies:
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 22 May 2021 at 08:44
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Astonishing that you manage this whole lengthy diatribe S-t, without mentioning two of the biggest factors to affect this league since it was formed in its current guise in 2009, namely the extensive RFU funding cuts in last 18 months and the Covid-19 pandemic. Or do you think these are 'just excuses'?! "Jersey and Cornish Pirates are even dipping into Wales for players..." I must have missed Jersey signing a player on loan from Wales - please enlighten us
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Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 22 May 2021 at 08:49
" and the reduction in what the RFU have given the Championship" Sorry , should read Bath and Worcester for you!... But that's close enough to Wales And lastly, COVID19. no relegation covers that subject... Hence why Im saying Instead of paying for loan players blood youth.What have you to lose? |
islander wrote:Posted By: Cherub
Date Posted: 22 May 2021 at 08:50
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How about the following as a suggestion: 1 Each Championship side is limited to a 30 man squad. 2 The squad is announced at the start of the season. This way all loanees are there for the whole season. Perhaps there could be a strictly managed emergency loanee system to cover excessive injuries. And of course this also places much more emphasis on running a successful Academy programme so each club can start to produce more locally based talent. I feel certain these suggestions will be ripped apart but let’s see. |
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 22 May 2021 at 09:06
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Couple of points Ealing charge loan clubs for players, (quite often more than a player would cost esp in Nat 1if there were enough players available but it’s the knock on of squad sizes) as do most other Champ clubs. Not a moan but fair enough to cover costs Championship is only league where there are no restrictions on loans/DRs Why? ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 22 May 2021 at 10:14
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I would really like to see squad sizes capped at something between 35 and 40 (taking into account some kind of credit for academy players). This would have the advantages of: 1. Creating additional strategic dimensions to selection. 2. Potentially forcing players to be less specialized so that they can cover multiple positions (and thus reducing the value of supersized players). 3. Helping to keep costs down. 4. Ensuring that players aren't hoarded and get regular game time, thus increasingly quality up and down the leagues. 5. Increasing name-recognition of players as they are playing more often. Rugby has 15 players on the pitch and 23 in a match day squad. The NFL has 22 players on the pitch (counting offense and defense), 47 on the game day roster and 53 on the team overall. The ratios aren't perfect, but they are close enough to tell you that a squad size of 35-40 should be sufficient for Rugby as a contact sport.
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Posted By: Cricks at 2
Date Posted: 22 May 2021 at 11:06
As in many Social Media posts, half truths and innuendo reign. I just can’t be bothered to discuss Bedford Blues with someone who is ignorant of the facts and does not even know what makes Bedford Blues tick. Just watch them play great rugby and get watched by the largest crowds in the Championship. Always a great match day at Goldington Road. This is a Bedford side and we are not ‘dictated to’ by Northampton. Mike Rayer is the highly respected DOR of Bedford Blues and the Northampton Management recognise that their youngsters are given a Pearl of a chance to develop, but within Bedford Blues. As for young talent, where do you think the Bedford Academy talent used to go in the past? We have always had a link with Northampton, but we remain proudly Bedford Blues.
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Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 22 May 2021 at 11:09
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Are they Clubs seems a bit of an esoteric question to me and we all view this from our own experience and history. I'm not a member of any rugby club now but I have a season ticket to watch Jersey Reds play. I think of Jersey Athletic as a real rugby club team in the model I remember from my playing days but Jersey Reds are a probably a professional full time team whose constituent players are likely to change every year. I thoroughly enjoy supporting both Athletic and the Reds and at my age hope the quality of rugby from each can be maintained and personally do not get hung up on whether they pass the test of being a club as long as they play near where I live and I can see the odd match with a few mates. Mond and Scottish are probably the nearest to my own historic model of a rugby club and Trailfinders are probably the furthest from my model but I still equally enjoy visiting Vallis Way & the RAG and have always felt welcome at both and surely hospitality is the most important feature of any rugby club. I am pleased to say I have always felt welcome at every Championship Club I have visited including the occasional visitor from the Prem. ------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD. |
Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 22 May 2021 at 11:54
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Scrumtime - I agree with many of your assertions, I think particularly pertinent is that the Prem clubs run such huge squads that too many players are not actually playing. The young lads should be playing Nat 1 and then Champ before moving up. In too many cases, that I see, players come through academies then dont make it but instead of dropping down a league they jack in! Your question is valid about partnership agreements and clubs losing their DNA, particularly clubs like Bedford. Hartpury will always be what they are as they are not a true "Club". I totally understand why Bedford, Ampthill and Cov had headed down that route. However, I think you are wrong about Richmond, players just go there for good rugby whilst working in London. They only have 1 dual reg player and that is generally on the understanding that he is available all season. They should be commended for being a true club with minis, juniors, 5 mens teams, vets and a strong womens section. They could easily have buddied with Harlequins so good on them for sticking to their principles. But the Champ still does not know what it is , the RFU have no idea . . is it a professional league? A development league ? But then the RFU paid deloitte huge amounts to tell them what it was . . I am still waiting to find out! ------------- Run with it |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 22 May 2021 at 21:55
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When a club like Bedford with no sugar daddy faces central funding cuts, lost revenues from match day attendance (and don’t get me started about next season, 11 or 10 clubs in the competition), i am welcoming that our friends in Northampton saw our struggles and agreed a partnership. ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 22 May 2021 at 22:09
| You seem to be making out this is something new, even before the money came in smaller clubs were used by bigger ones either as feeders or for somewhere for players who have lost form or coming back from injury. |
Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 23 May 2021 at 08:00
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TB the point you make is correct. The issue unfortunately now is that the soon to be new person in charge of PRL when he was in charge of the RFU changed the rules so that the number of dual reg/loan players went up from a handful to 13 -and they do not have to be the same 13 all season. If this had been for one year to help deal with Covid and lost RFU revenue I could live with it but that was not the reason it was introduced and not the reason it will remain in place. |
Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 25 May 2021 at 16:54
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Richmond have used this season as a sort of extended practice session. It's a reasonable thing to do in the current circumstances, although it's negated Mond's greatest strength, the teamwork. If they hadn't done it too many players would have been kicking their heels with no games. In normal times the fringe players play for the Vikings, which has always been a a team that plays a high standard of rugby. I am hoping the rotation policy will bear fruit next season, when the best 21 will play and the rest keep going in the second team. As for the teams with all the loanees, I suppose it's a case of needs must when the devil drives. ------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 25 May 2021 at 17:19
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I strongly supect there will be no promotion and no relegation in the Championship next season. The questios to be settled are: - how many teams do we want in the top semi-pro league 12,14 or 16. - if it is enlarged, how many promotion / relegation slots should there be at the bottom. - if ring fencing is formlised which clubs lose sponsors. I hope we continue to have hard fought rugby in both the Championship and National 1 with plenty of teams going up and down between them. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 25 May 2021 at 20:35
I hope that too CQ. I know there's a RFU Council mtg on 11/6 that is supposed to be confirming the notion of a temporarily ring-fenced 13-team Prem, but not sure if it will deal with these Qs. My personal views/preferences would be:
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Posted By: Saint
Date Posted: 26 May 2021 at 13:53
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We will be moving to a 14 team league over the next few seasons, hopefully 14 in the PL, 14 in the Championship and 14 in National 1. With promotion and relegation between all three. If the RFU Council fail to ensure that they are failing in their duty to the game. ------------- Saint |
Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 26 May 2021 at 14:03
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Saint I agree with your figures but going forward it will not be annual promotion and relegation between Prem and Champ. It may be a year or two before it is annual promotion and relegation between Champ and Nat 1 as they increase Champ from 11 (or I think 10 clubs at the end of next season) to 14 . |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 27 May 2021 at 15:36
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I think the Championship will have to muddle through with 11 teams, I assue London Scotish will return next season and Ealing will not be invited to join Saracens. Then in 2022, I would hope there will be promotion to the Premiership, if only becuase a 14 team league makes more sense. but that will require the RFU having a spine. A number of National 1 clubs will be promoted at the end of the coming season. I cannot see any Championship clubs being relegated. I assume the Championship will also be enlarged to 14 teams. That would leave National 1 with 13 teams looking for 14, so presumably 1 down and two up. Then the 41 remaining National 2 sides would be joined by 11 from across the Regional Premiership leagues to form the new three national 2 leagues. But in 2023 we should have normal promotionand relegation. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 27 May 2021 at 16:31
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Anyone see the article about Jersey in the rugby paper? A potential move to the ProD2 being considered Looks unlikely from what the chairman said mainly due to the logistics and the FFR not being keen on an RFU Club playing within their system. |
Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 27 May 2021 at 17:42
https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-news/337502/rfu-cuts-move-jersey-reds-to-consider-switch-to-french-rugby/" rel="nofollow - RFU cuts move Jersey Reds to consider switch to French rugby (therugbypaper.co.uk) ------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD. |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 27 May 2021 at 22:36
I saw it, yes. It’s not going to happen...
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Posted By: Isithalftimeyet
Date Posted: 28 May 2021 at 07:06
But maybe another pre-season test against RCVannes who will have won the ProD2 play offs'?
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Posted By: Jerorky
Date Posted: 28 May 2021 at 12:04
| The most interesting information in the article is the French system of financially rewarding the inclusion of home-produced players. Yes please, Mr RFU or whoever !! Wouldn't it be great to cheer on "our" lads again (and friends of course )? |