Championship for Leicester?
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Forum Name: The Championship
Forum Description: Discuss the 12 clubs forming the English Championship.
URL: http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=18939
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Topic: Championship for Leicester?
Posted By: The Blues
Subject: Championship for Leicester?
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 08:36
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Probably won’t happen to Leicester if found guilty. Leicester Tigers: Premiership salary cap director investigating historical image rights allegations https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59809659" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59809659
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Replies:
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 09:21
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If they are found guilty should they not face the same penalty as Saracens. Would that then mean that two go up? I cannot see the PRL or RFU allowing this to happen and then Leicester having to stay in the Championship for a couple of years...... yeah right that is bound to happen, they will move heaven and earth to prevent that from happening. ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 09:36
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The RFU tend to go with Precedents and Tariffs. If the alleged offense is deemed the same or worse than Sarries then points deduction and ultimately relegation should follow. If a lesser offense points deduction and a fine might suffice. The precedent was set by the Sarries case. Not 100% how they would handle relegation after the RFU stated "no relegation" they might double up on the points deduction bit, 50 points this season, 50 points next. No Euro Rugby for 2 years or more for Tigers will be a killer, interesting that they've let two big earners go (Ford and Genge) almost like they are trying to cut the wage bill to a more "even" salary level?? Think David Barnes will be the busiest man at Twickenham in the New Year! ------------- Crouch, Bind, Tweet! |
Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 09:37
I should imagine that if found guilty Sarries will be screaming for Leicester to face the same sanction. The RFU/PL have set a precedent ------------- Tackle Low!!!!! |
castleparknight wrote:Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 10:26
Sarries penalty was 35 points deduction, they were also asked to open their books to prove they were within the salary cap for that season - they declined to do so, choosing to take relegation instead (read into that what you may) Leicester's case would presumably follow the same path if found guilty - although they may make different choices to Sarries. A little early to start thinking of 2 up from the Championship IMO - I would suspect that if Leicester were relegated it is more likely the Premiership would play with 13 again or even no promotion and play with 12 with the possibility of jumping to 14 the following season (no chance of Leicester not finishing in top 2 of Championship) ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 10:35
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With Sale snapping up star players one after the other (Tuilagi last year, now Ford for next year) and having 10-15 South Africans in their squad, I am surprised how they can be within the Salary cap. Bristol, also have a number of high profile players and have now re-signed Genge for next year. Perhaps the RFU should inspect the books of all Premiership clubs without delay? As for punishment for exceeding the salary cap I would suggest that any club found guilty of such should lose their RFU funding for the following season - this would save the hard-up RFU some money. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 10:39
| Which they could then invest into the community game - NOT - more likely extend Eddie's contract and give him a big pay rise |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 10:57
| I suspect South Africans are cheaper than home based players. Converting their salaries back to SA rand will give them a hugely comfortable post playing-retirement position back home. |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 11:32
My thoughts exactly.... ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 12:39
That may be correct, especially for the average Saffa. However I was under the impression that there is a payment from the RFU which is connected to the number of English qualified players in each match day squad. Assuming this is still correct they must be forgoing this every game? ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 12:55
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If it was anything like the £20K (I am happy to be corrected) that the Championship got paid for the whole season then clubs will probably happily forgo that option. ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 14:54
No idea how much it was, but I would seriously doubt it was as low as £20k a season - more like £20K a game? ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 15:32
| Champ clubs get max £150k for this season but some of that ring fenced to only be spent on certain areas eg £50k on medical. Lot less than the £560k before the pandemic-and even then the majority were losing money each season. Full time 2nd tier pro league simply not financially possible |
Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2021 at 15:47
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That final sentence is nonsense. Add 'self funded through gate receipts' and it is accurate, or add 'without central funding'. It is only impossible when the RFU has decided that all its funding goes to white elephant gin palaces, or what are becoming increasingly obviously Lovely Premiership teams.
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Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 01:37
Sale have been known before for operating a very small first team squad at one stage just 31 players, this in turn enabled them to afford these players as they had less players overall to cover the £7m or £5m etc, whilst other clubs may have first team squads of 42-45. |
Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 01:40
Last season was £150k, this season is £161k - an upgrade courtesy of PRL! Even that pre pandemic figure was sometimes alot higher , some clubs recieving £690k in the 2019/20 season. The drop is incredible, however it was slightly worrying the number of clubs that based almost their entire business plans across this funding, they knew was ending in 2020. |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 08:54
Ending, according to the RFU not the Championship (who should surely have been informed of this), based on the non-existent KPI's that were allegedly in place. Whilst the RFU continues to pump millions into each Prem Club, clubs who continue in not developing English players but take the money. Even you know that this is just a ploy to ring fence the Prem through another avenue. But lets not go there. ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 09:57
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It seems to me that the whole mess in the Championship was caused by the RFU publicly stating they wanted a full-time 2nd tier without providing realistic funding levels (40 players @ £40k = £1.6m) It raised expectancy amongst players and in some clubs that full-time was possible (even if pay levels would be considerably lower than many at Premier Level) It now seems the RFU have abandoned the dream of a full-time 2nd tier and are actively discouraging it by slashing the funding -were they expecting the teams to somehow obtain a sugar-daddy each to fund their dreams? I totally agree, some teams seem to have relied on the £500k-£650k supplied by the RFU as their main source of income alongside match day income in some cases (e.g. Leeds being effectively bust but allowing to have one more season at Championship level -and of course an extra £500k). With the Premiership salary cap reducing to £5m per season from next season one might hope the RFU funding to each team will be reduced - however the prospect of 14 teams will likely swallow up any savings. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 10:34
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How much funding do you think the RFU should provide? Enough for gold-plated taps in the Committee washroom, perhaps? ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 11:55
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Firstly I totally agree that there should be a salary cap AND that it should be totally transparent. What I do wonder is how many clubs are making "extra payments" through ghost companies set up by clever accountants. Can't believe its just been Sarries and now Leicester? What doesn't make any sense at all is that the salary cap is the same for every club across the board, it should be linked to a %age of gross income, however that may be accrued. In footballing terms would you really try to impose the same salary cap to Man Utd (a global brand) as you would to Norwich City (no offence!)??? Why should a club generating millions have the same salary cap as a club generating perhaps a tenth of those figures? Back to rugby - Leicester have always generated big crowds whilst the likes of Worcester and others get far fewer through the gates - so in my opinion it's farcical that they should have the same salary cap
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Posted By: Whistle watcher
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 13:30
| I can't disagree with that logic, but if you agree to the rules, shouldn't you abide by them? |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 13:39
| You should indeed and I agree Leicester should be punished if they are found to have transgressed but there's always someone trying to bend the rules or create ways of seemingly getting round them. The clever accountants (with their even cleverer lawyers) might argue that it is illegal to limit the amounts paid out in salaries - doesn't happen in any other business environment as far as I am aware so maybe any salary cap agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on |
Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 14:02
There have been salary caps in many sports, often much wealthier and with much more expensive lawyers than Rugby Union. They tend not to be overturned, because they are clearly written in agreements the clubs have signed up to. This is unlikely to be different here - Leicester now declaring the earth to be flat would have no impact if they'd signed to say it was round.
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 14:02
A fair point, but those are not currently the rules - presumably the intention is to create as level a playing field as possible. Another thought is who is to say what constitutes income? A sugar daddy giving a club £5m a game could be construed as income if that person was to purchase a number of season tickets for instance or pay over the odds for a box on the halfway line? Interestingly, given my suspicions of Sale, Sanderson has come out against the Leicester investigations - getting worried about his own club perhaps? ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2021 at 14:05
But as you say it is an agreement, one all the clubs sign up to so should strictly adhere to. As for punishment, I understand the review after the Sarries debacle introduced far stricter penalties than were previously in place. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Whistle watcher
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 09:23
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I think Saracens being relegated was an anomoly and, initially anyway, not intended. They were docked points in the first instance and would likely hgave climbed back up the tabel and had a decent finish, but the clincher for them was that they refused to open their books which resulted in more points being deducted. Let's be honest, if they hadn't been relegated, it would likely have been Leicester that season!!
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Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 10:19
Would've been a nice groundfiller though! And It would be an even shorter trip to the away game than the home game for me (you too) - assuming they hadn't been behind close doors of course :( ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 10:27
As I posted earlier ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Whistle watcher
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 15:25
Quite so.
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Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 16:05
Hardly. The first time the Cheats were found guilty nothing happened at all. It was swept under the carpet after the Cheats promised not to cheat again. The second time they were found guilty they were deducted points. It was only when they refused to hand over the books to prove they weren't cheating for a third time that they were automatically relegated. If that's a precedent then Leicester have two more bouts of cheating to take place before they are relegated - and that's only if they are found guilty this time!
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 16:14
| Good point - like it! |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 19:19
However, the punishments have been beefed up following the Sarries debacle - now include points deductions, relegation, fines and stripping of titles. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 10:46
| But I believe - and I could be wrong - that the Leicester issues are long in the past (5+ years, possibly?) and therefore the newer, more stringent punishments would not apply. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 11:23
| You are missing a few points, firstly the salary cap and the Premiership has nothing to do with the RFU, they just pay for access to players for England, it is the (currently) 13 clubs who are share holders(for want of a better word) who decide what happens in the Premiership. The new guidelines were agreed along with the lowered salary cap and only go back 5 years so anything before that is out of bounds, it does not mean that anyone has necessarily broken any rules as such(though rumours were abound that Bath may have been over the cap some years back),it was an agreed cut off point, slate clean and start again scenario. It would seem that a private company was paying players for image rights, what is under investigation is who knew about it and did contravene the rules. |
Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 11:23
If that is the case I wonder why it's only come to light recently.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 11:42
| Forgot another point, it was also agreed there would be no relegation this season, now I don't believe it took into account any misdemeanours, so there may well be no option of relegation this season, not clear on that point however. |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 12:33
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Good point re: no relegation Be interesting to see the outcome ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 14:10
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The blazers do seem to have painted themselves into a corner. There is going to be a temporary ring fence, which would be wonderful for the cartel, until one of their number needs to be punished. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 14:19
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I believe the Leicester case will, if found guilty, be subject to the new rules. I would also take the 'no relegation this season' to mean no relegation due to finishing bottom of the league, thus relegation as a punishment would still be a possibility. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 17:38
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RUGBY TONIGHT. Discussing the alleged salary cap infringement by Leicester Tigers. This is all very unpalatable to all Rugby fans and rekindles the unsavoury Saracens fiasco. There needs to be serious overhaul of the financial standards and regulations surrounding the Premiership. It was suggested that academy players should be used to encourage teams to stay within the reduced 5 Million salary expenditure. ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |