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Chinnor - points deduction?

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Topic: Chinnor - points deduction?
Posted By: CJB1
Subject: Chinnor - points deduction?
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 13:10
It has just been drawn to my attention that Chinnor have been deducted 5 or 6 points, resulting in Mose rising to 7th in the table, though the RFU's official tables aren't showing this yet.

Can anybody shed light on this?  My guess would be something to do with player registrations (it usually is), but what's the full story?


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"What I need is a strong drink and a peer group"



Replies:
Posted By: Moseley Mauler
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 13:16
Deducted 5 points for the use of an unregistered player agent


Posted By: Moseley Mauler
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 13:17
https://www.ncarugby.com/announcements/rugby-football-union-statement-chinnor-rfc/%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.ncarugby.com/announcements/rugby-football-union-statement-chinnor-rfc/


Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 13:17
Dr Google comes to the rescue: https://www.ncarugby.com/announcements/rugby-football-union-statement-chinnor-rfc/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ncarugby.com/announcements/rugby-football-union-statement-chinnor-rfc/

It's for use of an unregistered agent.  There are further sanctions including another 5 point deduction suspended until the end of next season.

I know we hoped to catch Chinnor soon, but I didn't expect them to make it quite so easy. 


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"What I need is a strong drink and a peer group"


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 16:59
If it was a Premiership club that had gotten their administration wrong I wonder what would've happened?

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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 17:14
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

If it was a Premiership club that had gotten their administration wrong I wonder what would've happened?

All depends on which Premiership club. LW got absolutely hammered in their first premiership season for player registration - IIRC the team manager was banned from rugby admin for life.


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keep the faith


Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 19:01
I wish clubs could deduct points from the RFU for inept admin!!!!

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Run with it


Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 19:05
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

If it was a Premiership club that had gotten their administration wrong I wonder what would've happened?

All depends on which Premiership club. LW got absolutely hammered in their first premiership season for player registration - IIRC the team manager was banned from rugby admin for life.

Which to be fair, was the RFU's revenge after LW humiliated them by forcing them to admit LW into the Prem.


Posted By: fatbear
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 20:15
The statement by Chinnor

Statement – First XV Points Deduction
It is with regret that I confirm the Rugby Football Union (RFU) has issued a sanction of an immediate five-point deduction for being in contravention of regulation 8.4.1 in respect of having dealings with an unregistered agent in the recruitment of two players last year.

This was brought to our attention a few months ago by the RFU following scrutiny of the paperwork that was submitted by us that listed the unregistered agents. We immediately acknowledged that we had contravened the regulation, apologised and undertook to put measures in place to ensure that it did not happen again. We cooperated fully with the subsequent investigation by the RFU.

The RFU determined that they would bring a charge and we attended remotely a Zoom tribunal several weeks ago. We submitted that the error was an innocent one as our Director of Rugby was not aware of the regulations and drew their attention to the extenuating circumstances of having to rebuild a squad from scratch and the financial effects of Covid that had put considerable strain on our volunteers. The tribunal accepted that no harm was caused by the contravention and indeed two players were successfully recruited. We also drew their attention to precedent in which a club at a similar level to ours knew about the regulations and contravened them and received a suspended deduction of points. We argued that all of these matters should warrant a lenient consideration of the charge, but the tribunal made the point that it was for them to determine the severity of the sentence which they duly did.

It might be thought by some that having regard to the circumstances we have been treated harshly by this sanction. The Board has taken account of advice regarding the prospects of successfully appealing the decision and the impact that a further inquiry would have on our volunteers who help to run the Club and has decided against lodging an appeal.

At Chinnor, we always strive for high standards in all that we do and unfortunately in this instance we have not met that bar. We will ensure that it does not happen again and we apologise to our players, management team, members and supporters as they had no part in this and will be disappointed. We all know how hard points are to come by on the pitch.

We would urge all clubs to thoroughly ensure that in the recruitment of players any agents they use are registered at the RFU.

There is no doubt that this has knocked us back in many ways, but the positive approach that we have always adopted in good times and bad should now come to the fore. We must now put this behind us and continue to focus our very precious time and energy in a positive direction. We must not forget all of our achievements so far in building a Club for all and the tremendous progress both on and off the pitch at all levels. I know there is much more to come.

Simon Vickers 
Chairman, Chinnor RFC Thame



Posted By: fatbear
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 20:22
There seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the two statements - Chinnor state the 5 point deduction is immediate whereas the National League Rugby statement says it is suspended

Neither of the two players mentioned have started a match this season, with Lomas having made 6 substitute appearances, with Heathman has come off the bench twice.


Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 21:15
RFU In beat little club side with a big stick, shock!

Naughty naughty boys 

Eddie is ok and doing a great job 
All prem clubs with plenty of money whilst rest of game suffers 

But a poor Nat one side steps out of line and gets beaten with a big stick

What a joke! 


Posted By: Monkey Magic
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 21:47
How many years have Chinnor been semi-pro? Don't know the rules? Elementary mistake thinking money=knowledge. Karma.............


Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2022 at 21:55
Originally posted by fatbear fatbear wrote:

There seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the two statements - Chinnor state the 5 point deduction is immediate whereas the National League Rugby statement says it is suspended

Neither of the two players mentioned have started a match this season, with Lomas having made 6 substitute appearances, with Heathman has come off the bench twice.
There is both an immediate 5-point deduction and a suspended one to the end of the 23/24 season.

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"What I need is a strong drink and a peer group"


Posted By: kingsheathlad
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 07:28
NCA site shows an updated table. 

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Cauliflower ear.


Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 07:43
Originally posted by Monkey Magic Monkey Magic wrote:

How many years have Chinnor been semi-pro? Don't know the rules? Elementary mistake thinking money=knowledge. Karma.............

As if 5 points is going to make any difference to their season at all! 
It properly cost the RFU more in payments to get everybody at a hearing (normally £250/£500 per evening depending who you are).

It’s just, as I said another case of the mighty RFU,  getting their Doc Martins on and giving  a smaller club a good kicking! 

Yes they were wrong, but why not a weeks wages to charity or no use of loan players for a month or the likes, that would hurt them more the money that some are on! 




Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 09:03
Chinnor are a very decent club and I have found Simon Vickers a decent bloke. It is typical  of the arrogant and patronsing demeanour of many involved with the RFU to, as Scrumtime says, take out the big stick to anyone who they see as beneath them.

As Simon Vickers says in his statement it is the hard pressed volunteers that have to keep up with the RFU's blizzard of bureaucracy. I do understand there has to be a sanction otherwise rules would fall into disrepute howver the RFU could have acknowledged that this was an innocent mistake and avoided the public flogging of Chinnor.

This part of Simon's statement was particularly revealing 

"We also drew their attention to precedent in which a club at a similar level to ours knew about the regulations and contravened them and received a suspended deduction of points. We argued that all of these matters should warrant a lenient consideration of the charge, but the tribunal made the point that it was for them to determine the severity of the sentence which they duly did".

I can picture the RFU saying those words with all the condecension they could muster....how impertinent of Chinnor to speak up in their defence!

When you place this against the RFU's shockingly disingenuous PR spin re Eddie Jones and England's positive 6 Nations campaign it just lays bare the RFU's general contempt for everything rugby that does not involve the Premiership and the International game.

I do not believe that any such sanction would be applied to a Premiership club with similar circumstances. 


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Even Older Hooker
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 11:29
I could not have put it better myself Big Eddie. All our wonderful clubs rely on Big hearted volunteers to make it all happen week after week. And to be treated like this is quite disgusting.



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Another one against the head


Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 14:41
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

If it was a Premiership club that had gotten their administration wrong I wonder what would've happened?

It would probably depend if Mr Wray was involved.


Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 16:57
I find it mystifying when the expression "blizzard of bureaucracy" is used. I've been dealing with this in my current admin role for 6 years and I haven't yet found it too difficult or time-consuming. It does help to get your policies sorted out early and knowing where to go for advice from the RFU (which is readily forthcoming) is important. Before anyone has a go at me, I don't use the National League Rugby Chair to ask the questions, I do it myself!


Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 17:29
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

I find it mystifying when the expression "blizzard of bureaucracy" is used. I've been dealing with this in my current admin role for 6 years and I haven't yet found it too difficult or time-consuming. It does help to get your policies sorted out early and knowing where to go for advice from the RFU (which is readily forthcoming) is important. Before anyone has a go at me, I don't use the National League Rugby Chair to ask the questions, I do it myself!

Of the RFU academy director : one stop shop 


Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 17:40
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

I find it mystifying when the expression "blizzard of bureaucracy" is used. I've been dealing with this in my current admin role for 6 years and I haven't yet found it too difficult or time-consuming. It does help to get your policies sorted out early and knowing where to go for advice from the RFU (which is readily forthcoming) is important. Before anyone has a go at me, I don't use the National League Rugby Chair to ask the questions, I do it myself!

I have only ever been adjacent to the bureacracy and things may have improved, but going back quite  a while I found it anything but simple.........and I am a Chartered Accountant...........maybe that is the problem


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''The future isn't what it used to be''


Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 18:20
I have to agree with Halliford, it has never been easier to register players than it is now, you don’t even have to meet the player to complete the registration forms and every bit of regulation are readily available. It tends to fall over when the right hand doesn’t completely inform the left hand what is happening or perhaps aren’t quite giving all the facts. 

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So many Christians not enough Lions


Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 18:23
Does make me laugh that clubs have to deal with "Agents" at semi-pro level to recruit players. Been said before but the World's gone mad


Posted By: SKalpy
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 22:40
Have to say that I also agree with Haliford. The regs are on an open forum (go to the England Rugby website) for all the world to see. The judiciary panel applied a decision that was consistent with previous decisions (Doncaster and Henley) so I cannot for the life of me see why you are all having a pop at the RFU. We all know where the regs are, we can all access them and if we don't understand them then we all know who to ask. I find it incredulous that a DoR of a National league club can say he didn't know about the regulation, I'am only the kit guy for my club (18 years experience) and I do.

PS. My position has, and always will be as a volunteer.


Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2022 at 23:54
I seem to recall that back in the time of beyond the Fringe, Alan Bennet had an agent, who negotiated a higher salary for him than the other three. They were on £100, and he was on £110, except he had to pay his agent £11.

I know a lot of authors and they all use agents, but sorting out worldwide publishing contracts takes a lot of time. I am not sure how complex a semi-pro rugby contract is. So the only real reason is that they will help the player discover which clubs have openings for players in that position.

The RFU realizes agents take money out of the game,  which is why it does not want unregistered agents acting in the game.


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Sweeney Delenda Est


Posted By: kingsheathlad
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2022 at 21:01
The BBC table doesn't reflect a deduction while the RFU table now shows 10 deducted. 

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Cauliflower ear.


Posted By: fatbear
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2022 at 21:16
Chinnor's programme today had the 5 point deduction........


Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2022 at 21:18
Originally posted by kingsheathlad kingsheathlad wrote:

The BBC table doesn't reflect a deduction while the RFU table now shows 10 deducted. 
Who are the BBC …bothered! 



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