Promotion and Relegation 2023 for Level 5 and belo
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Topic: Promotion and Relegation 2023 for Level 5 and belo
Posted By: Front Jumper
Subject: Promotion and Relegation 2023 for Level 5 and belo
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 11:34
| Whats the news about promotion and relegation Levels 5, 6, and 7 Any ideas guys! |
Replies:
Posted By: One For The Ditch
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 11:54
| Not that I know, but it might be dependent on what happens at level 1 and 2. Hopefully the dire England performance, on Saturday, might suggest to the head sheds that ringfencing the Premiership is inept. |
Posted By: Neasham
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 12:09
|
Looked this up only yesterday. National 1 will see the top club promoted to the Championship (subject to Regulation 5), while the bottom side three (3) clubs will be relegated or such other number as notified by the RFU to the clubs. National 2 and Regional Leagues will see the top clubs in each league promoted to a league above, with the bottom two (2) clubs in each League relegated. Clubs who are relegated from Regional 2, will return to their Constituent Bodies Counties league. Promotion for Counties and belowCounties 1 will see the top club in each League promoted a League above. Any remaining spaces in the higher league that are needed to be populated will be determined at the end of the season. Counties 2 and below will see the following apply:   i. where one League feeds into one higher League:   the top two clubs in the supporting Leagues at the end of the season will be promoted to the Level above. ii. where two Leagues feed into one higher League: the top club in each of the supporting Leagues at the end of the season will be promoted to the Level above. iii. in respect of all cases, any remaining spaces in the higher league will be determined at the end of the season by such applicable criteria as notified by the RFU to the clubs  N.B. The position of the team(s) not eligible for promotion shall be disregarded in the event that a team would be promoted into a League in which another team of the same club plays, as prohibited by Regulation[ 13.2.4(b)(iv)].   Relegation for Counties and belowAt Counties 1 and below, the number of clubs relegated will vary and be determined based on such number of Constituent Body based leagues. After promotion has taken place in accordance with these regulations the requisite number of clubs or teams shall be relegated at the end of the season. This will ensure that in the following season there are in all Leagues, Counties 1 and below, the same number of clubs or teams as in the season before or such other number of clubs or teams as the Committee may decide. N.B. At Counties 1 and below if a first XV is relegated into a League in which the Lower XV from the same clubs plays, that Lower  XV shall automatically be relegated as one of the requisite number of Clubs to be relegated. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 12:23
| What happened to those lovely coloured charts someone put a lot of time in doing back in the day, I couldn't follow half of them but they were great. |
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 13:48
The problem is not with next season but 24/25 if the provisional proposals go ahead then:-
Leagues below will be feeder leagues 6-9 12 teams This will regionalise league rugby and reduce travelling but it will also dilute all national leagues below Premiership 2. The decision the RFU will have to make are they going to fund the two Premiership leagues to make Prem 2 a fully professional league as the French have done with their leagues, you only need to look at last Saturdays result to see how much better they are with strength in depth, the England under 20's also got a hammering.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 14:10
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So back to where we were before, but without National 1 and with smaller leagues and a ringfenced Championship. Deckchairs on the Titanic anyone. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 20:40
The current situations bad enough - too many games with scores over 50 against the bottom 5 or 6, any further dilution at level 4 and the decent games of rugby will be limited to the top 4 orv5 in each division. Also if the number of games is further reduced clubs income will be hit hard. Spectator levels are definitely down since pre-covid days - I cannot see these ideas reversing this trend. ------------- RAID ON |
Camquin wrote:Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2023 at 23:24
So
that is the current 14, plus 4 down plus ten from current level 4. So
you could have Cornish Pirates playing Ding's Crusaders, or Hinckley
playing Nottingham. Though, the ex-Championship sides will have had
their teeth pulled due to losing the current central funding (currently
they each get about two months of Bill Sweeney's salary) Darlington
will make some long treks South, Ampthill, Cambridge and Bury St
Edmunds could all go North. Pirates and Plymouth could have seven trips
to London. I am sure Barnes are not looking forward to coming back 330
miles in a coach after a 50 point hiding in Penzance.
At
this level you have roughly five sides in each league from old National
2 North and South and the other nine from Regional 1. There are going
to be some mismatches
So about two teams that would have been in Regional 1 and the rest from Regional 2. I
assume level 6 will be 16 leagues - and we are back where we were. By
this level, there would only be one side who would have been a league
higher. Frankly, the problems were all below this level, and the last reorganization failed to sort them out and introduced new ones.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 07:45
|
All this madness because silly people can’t run professional rugby clubs. I was at Bedford Ath (Regional 1). Aside from the gap for the cup, the actual league it’s felt hasn’t been too bad. It took some clubs (Ath being one) time to adjust to a higher playing standard. But it feels like it’s working. Now looking at the above, looks a bit off. On one hand, splitting National one might help attendances, reduce some travelbut as highlighted still a lot of travel for others. However I think that level you still want to be seen as best in the country at that level. Does it need less teams, say 2x10, play home and away regional, then one game against sides in other region (27 games in total)?
------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 07:49
More I read that, was the RFU sober when they thought these ideas through? Or in Huckleberryly Pearen panic that after Wasps, Worcester the rest of the cards would collapse? ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 12:03
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National League Clubs discussed the idea of the North/South split and a large majority was in favour, albeit that a current split would see Chinnor and Cambridge go North. It was agreed that it was important that the North designation continues to support the promotion of the 15-a-side code. The one caveat to that, which was almost unanimous, was that there must be 13 meaningful Home matches for National 1 Clubs. The initial thought was two Leagues of 12 with 2 play-off matches between the two Leagues. These are only discussions, nothing has yet progressed as far as a recommendation so we can all have opinions and variations!
|
Posted By: @boatyjames
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 12:26
| There must be playoffs for the top four to decide a winner - many clubs don't want to go professional but would want to aim to be the best semi-pro side in the country. Nat 1 has been a target for so many for so long they can't just decide there won't be a champion - surely. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 12:53
| Not keen on this play off thing, the side that is top at the end of the season should get the reward, rather than and end of season lottery. If the the top teams get promotion and there was a playoff for those who came second like there used to be, then that is different. A few years back Gloucester were top of the Premiership, then they lost to Leicester in the final, great for Tigers, but wrong on every count that the league winners got nothing at all. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 13:12
|
But if there are two or three parallel leagues, who is champion. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 13:51
| Each league has it's own and will get the reward of promotion, if there are two leagues and three promotions like Nat 2 used to be, then a playoff for the third promotion made good sense. Now there are three leagues and still only three promotion places, then the three winners get the places, to deny a team who has performed all season on the basis of a playoff has no grounds, morally or otherwise. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 14:09
|
This is a pathological example. It would take a couple of unlucky, though not impossible, promotions or relegations. Remember, the three-way split at level 4 looked reasonable, until Chester ends up in the South-West. Colour coding indicates current level. Premiership 1 Bristol Ealing Exeter Chiefs Gloucester Harlequins Leicester Tigers London Irish Northampton Saints Sale Sharks Saracens Premiership 2 Ampthill Bath Bedford Blues Caldy Coventry Doncaster Hartpury RFC Jersey Reds Newcastle Falcons Wasps National North National South Birmingham Moseley Barnes Bishops Stortford Blackheath Bury St Edmunds Cinderford Cambridge Clifton Chinnor Cornish Pirates Fylde Dings Crusaders Hinckley Esher Hull London Scottish Hull Ionians Plymouth Albion Leeds Tykes Rams Leicester Lions Richmond Nottingham Rosslyn Park Sale FC Taunton Sedgley Park Worthing ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Front Jumper
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 15:31
|
Thanks guys for your info but how does it work at level 5, 6 and 7 with one promoted and two relegated then |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 15:32
| How come you have Pirates at level 3 when we are above Caldy and Ampthill in the league table? |
Posted By: Front Jumper
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 15:33
| how does it work Level5,6,7 with one up and two down from each league |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 15:51
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Exile - because I was deliberately trying to make the worst case for the North South split. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: MikeGC
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2023 at 16:20
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Definitely relegation at Level 5. My Club is exiting Regional 1 North West (deservedly so) technically we are already relegated as is the team below us in the league. |
Posted By: cobbler
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2023 at 11:26
Didn't Neasham's response near the top of the thread answer your original question?
|
Posted By: cobbler
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2023 at 11:31
This is interesting but as has been suggested could lead to more mismatches. Can you confirm whether the 8 Level 5 leagues would comprise 14 clubs? Hopefully so and no participation in Papa John Cup with little chance to arrange Sponsorship etc. for matches arranged only a few weeks before they are due to be played!
|
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2023 at 06:34
|
What i still fear is a ten than second tier. Does HQ think it will be professional? How can you run a pro club on 12 home matches (9 league and 3 cup). Wasn’t the Championship initially going to be a professional league? Which had scant tv coverage, whoops sorry games at weird times on Sky, packaged in an England deal. Central funding, which has dropped to a low figure it’s nearly worthless. Living in Bedfordshire we have two clubs, post CoVid the local newspaper has one page so sport edited by a reporter in Derby who has a dozen local papers to edit. A breakdown it seems in terms of communication (clubs or centrally) but the local BBC Radio allocates a dedicated FM or DAB slot to each ot the five local pro Wendyball clubs. Post match Saturday 5pm interviews with coaches, players from all five clubs, tweets from fans of said clubs. Less than 60 seconds for scrores from Bedford, Ampthill, Bishops Stortford and Old Albanians (sometimes even the scores are overlooked). What a way to get new followers or sponsors, with no media coverage, either by fault of RFU or post CoVid local media. Who in their right mind will fund a team of full time pros in the second tier? One thing for sure no local media here will cover this change of league structure, but their again how many more times will the RFU keep changing leagues? Football has had a tweak or two, but since 1992 in England it’s been 92 Premier/Football League clubs…do supporters in rugby know what our leagues are these days?
------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2023 at 06:53
|
Good post Kempston Blue - difficult to argue against what you have said. There is a definite need for a mechanism to promote rugby below the Premiership ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2023 at 10:58
| You would hope with a total of 10 games each week any tv deal would cover both Premier leagues, with the funds accrued shared.................................was that a pig just flew past my window? |
Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2023 at 11:05
Which does what for level 3 down? The solution to closing the gap between levels 1 and 2 should not run through widening it between levels 2 and 3. Anyone suggesting rising tides lifting all boats at this point will receive hollow laughter by the way.
------------- keep the faith |
Posted By: ParkBench
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2023 at 11:53
Fascinating to see it laid out like that and I'm sure there is a lot to argue about. National South looks like a great money-wringer with Barnes, Esher, Park, Richmond and Scottish crying out for Friday night fixtures home and away. As with your example of Chester ending up in the SW, Cambridge look to be on the losing travel costs ticket ending up in National North, as they don't even get nearby Ampthill who would be in Nat South instead of Pirates right now. Does anyone know when any of this would get voted on or is the Prem 1 + 2 a fait accompli?
|
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2023 at 12:02
But Cambridge get Bishops Stortford and Bury St Edmunds in the model used. ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2023 at 15:30
Given that there's quite a lot about the 23/24 structure that's not yet clear, I wouldn't get your hopes up about getting anything firm for 24/25 any time soon...
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2023 at 19:58
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The structure of the Premiership is decided by the long form agreement, drawn up between the RFU and PRL. So between Bill Sweeney and Simon Massie-Taylor. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2023 at 10:00
| The deal between RFU and PRL is due to be renewed in 24/25 season so I presume discussions have already started !!?? |
Posted By: Neasham
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2023 at 11:25
| This is just like the RFU - no regard for community rugby 🤣. The thread is about level 5 and below .. |
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2023 at 12:39
| However what happens to the Premiership and Championship and possibly Level 3 will have a dramatic effect on levels 4 and below, if what has been suggested level three is split into two Level 4 goes into 4 leagues, then Level 5 will be even more diluted |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2023 at 13:12
| All of the discussions I have been involved in suggest that only Levels 1-3 will be affected. Level 4 and below are expected to stay as they are. |
Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2023 at 15:06
so you'd have three leagues at level 4 feeding 2 at level 3? Madness. ------------- keep the faith |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2023 at 15:07
|
This is the RFU we are talking about ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2023 at 21:23
| How will level 4 not be affected, if the plans for levels 1-3 go ahead then Level 3 will be 2 leagues of 14 less 5 relegated from Level 2. So level 3 will need an extra 11 teams from Level 4. How would 3 leagues at level 4 promote into two leagues at level 3 surely the logical option would be two leagues at level 4 North and Midlands 2 leagues South East and South West feeding into Nat 3 North and Nat 3 South or an I being too logical. |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2023 at 21:39
Good (other than leaving out the '?') question WB. Interested to hear Halliford's answer to this, as he set the '1-3 only' hare running...
|
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2023 at 22:38
Am sure soccer used to have three regional feeders from level 7 into two leagues at level 6, it worked. Then they realised 4 into 2 is actually simpler. But the RFU seems to be run by weirdos who like complicating things. ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2023 at 09:47
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First - A Disclaimer! Not sure if I'm posting in the right thread?? It would appear that, barring a 120odd point victory for Blackburn at Manchester today, it will be Lymm who seem to be celebrating already their "promotion to NAT2 North" I think everyone acknowledges that NAT2 West will be 1 club short next season and whilst everyone is suggesting that will be Chester, Lymm although a few miles further north are more conveniently situated to the motorway network to head west. Just throwing it out there!?!?
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Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2023 at 10:43
I think Halliford's point is that there will be no further reorganisation below L3. Your earlier poster suggested four leagues at L4 and eight at L5, but he's saying that there has been no discussion about restructuring these leagues.
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Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2023 at 23:12
The discussions were National League Clubs, not the RFU. I agree that 3 feeding to 2 could be awkward unless 3 came down which could be done through playoffs. There is a desire not to dilute Levels 3 and 4 by making them too big and bringing up too many weaker teams which could produce mismatches. Yes, it’s a camel, a horse designed by a Committee but we aren’t starting with a blank sheet.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2023 at 23:19
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If you want to keep it competitive, keep it as 14 or 16 teams. If you want to reduce travel by splitting it North / south, there will be more teams and it will be diluted. This is simple cake eating logic. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: ParkBench
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2023 at 09:37
|
It’s impossible to keep this thread away from including the top of the pyramid. If the current top three tiers go from 37 teams (11, 12 and 14) to 48 teams (10, 10 and 2 x 14) that has a huge knock on. As it is the structure for 2023-24 isn’t crystal clear yet in the Championship regardless of who wins the thing.
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Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2023 at 13:59
| If they go for relegation in the Championship and No Promotion then the league becomes 11+ Wasps + Nat 1 winners = 13 teams not sure how then you would have a cup competition as it would equate to 24 League matches with one team resting every week plus a cup 6 games (not sure how you deal with the extra team) making 30 games plus a semi and final making two teams playing 32 games in the season. How would that fit in with the attempt to reduce the amount of rugby time players are playing. Surely it would be better to have no relegation and a 14 team league with no Cup which equals 26 competitive games. In reality the Championship cup pointless waste of time with most clubs simply resting players especially those who have no hope of getting into the semis. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2023 at 15:16
|
I believe there is talk of a 24 team cup, 11+13 With 6 pool games played in the international windows. So the Premiership get 20 league games, 6 cup games, 4 European games, plus knock out gams. The Championship get 24 league games and 6 cup games, and are not expected to reach the knock out stages. And it is only for this season. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |