The run in.....................
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Forum Name: National 1
Forum Description: Discuss the 14 clubs in the third level of the English game
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Printed Date: 01 May 2025 at 06:12
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Topic: The run in.....................
Posted By: tigerburnie
Subject: The run in.....................
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2025 at 16:25
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Race to avoid the drop' If Leicester Lions win this weekend, that will I understand confirm DMP's relegation. So a lot of presumption here, but looking at the fixture lists, Lions have only two away fixtures, whereas Esher have three. So is the Esher v Lions game in a couple of weekends, the "do or die" match? Both clubs have extremely important matches this weekend, neither can afford to lose, should Lions win at home and Esher lose at Dings, those points on the board could be disappearing. Fixtures for:- Lions have DMP at home Esher away Sale home Dings away Blackheath home Bishops Stortford home Esher have Dings away Leicester Lions home Bishops Stortford away Moseley home Plymouth Albion away Sedgeley Park home it's gonna be tight I think. |
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Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2025 at 17:18
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Isn’t there still the uncertainty that 3 might go down which might draw more teams into it? If two, it could be pivotal, as I see that this weekend, not only Lions at home to DMP but also Dings at home to Esher, which could be interesting. Unfortunately the uncertainty of what is happening is typical of the RFU. I remember us beating Exeter in the late nineties on the last day of the season in the Championship and it was not known whether the promotion play offs, that we were potentially involved in, was going to happen, or if indeed there would be relegation, which, if confirmed would have sent Exeter down. Ultimately the play offs went ahead, and Exeter stayed up as there was ultimately no relegation due to expansion of the Championship from 12 to 14 teams. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2025 at 17:25
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With the RFU lurking somewhere, they could split Nat 1 into North and South and no one goes down. Depending on the size of Premiership 2, there might be no relegations if more go up due to Worcester, London Irish and Wasps all failing to show up. So we have no idea do we?
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Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2025 at 17:37
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Good point although I think it would be criminal to regionalise a great league like National 1. Depends though if the clubs themselves want it. Also it might dilute the quality of the league. Seeing as the Championship clubs seem not to be interested in the Premiership Cup maybe, as in 1995/96 they might promote 4 and relegate no one. Bizarre though that we are in March & we have no idea of what is happening. Everyone really needs certainty or it could stilt the whole competition.
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Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2025 at 19:31
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Appreciate how frustrating the lack of confirmation of details must be. Having said that the prospect of the Champ being 14 teams & the knock-on effects of this on relegation down the pyramid were shared several weeks ago. Just checked the RFU London site to check the above and there's an update from last weekend that includes the relegation spreadsheet. See link below. Only 2 down from Nat 1, and 5 from the trio of N2 leagues... https://www.rfulondon.com/latest-news" rel="nofollow - https://www.rfulondon.com/latest-news
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Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2025 at 21:13
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Thanks Tom. I did see hear about the regional thing. Was it not mentioned last year? What I can’t work out is why they think Nat 1 is a community game? I really don’t see any merits in bringing in any of the ex Prem Clubs. I really don’t think they’ve can bring anything to the table. Some of their fans even think that the Championship should be some kind of feeder to support the Prem teams. Some even say they’d be happy to take a place in Nat 1. !!!! Others saying the Championship clubs have no ambition. Oh my goodness. At the end of the day it’s about the product on the field. The sense of entitlement is off the scale. My solution would be to cut out the middle man - put them back in the Premiership. They seem suited to that league. Just leave our National leagues alone. Promotion is earned on the field - not in a committee room. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2025 at 21:26
| There is some sort of plan where by the RFU give control to the Championship and National leagues in return for not forcing the vote of no confidence to remove some of the hierarchy at the forthcoming extra ordinary meeting. |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2025 at 21:32
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Tigerburnie. I have now read Islanders kind link. On that basis yes it looks to be between you and Esher. I wish you well. You are certainly very difficult to beat. Esher had a purple patch but seem to have dropped off a little so you certainly have a chance.
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Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2025 at 00:50
Sorry Tigerburnie. It’s been a long day. I didn’t read anything about control to the Championship. I thought it said in a second motion about giving grassroots clubs over to community Rugby. Does anyone know at what level community Rugby is? National 1 would not be my definition of that as it is effectively semi pro so it can’t be that. The definition of Community Rugby is stated on the Caldy site as: “Community Rugby covers Mini and Junior Rugby from U6-Senior Colts (u18), Girls Rugby and Touch Rugby”. So are we /am I mistaking the term as including the National Leagues when it actually refers to Junior Rugby? I am confused. Does anyone have any information on this? |
tigerburnie wrote:Posted By: FlyingRuck
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2025 at 08:31
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I have been banging on about what is the community game for ages. It is a completely wrong to categorise Nat 1 as being part of the community game. It just isn't. ------------- See you further on up the road |
Posted By: Nat1
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2025 at 08:46
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Agreed. Any club that pays its players (Champ down to Level 5 - Regional 1 on the whole, and some Level 6 clubs too) is not a 'community club' in the truest sense. Of course nearly all of the Champ Clubs down to Level 5 and beyond to the Counties leagues of Levels 7, 8, 9 etc will have 'community sections' for mini, junior, colts, girls, 2/3 XV, Vets etc to play, but this is quite different from labelling yourself as a 'Championship or National 1 community club' with regards to 1 XVs.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2025 at 09:23
| We are dealing with the RFU though, so you can discount any form of common sense I would suggest, t will very much depend on their agenda and what they think they could get away with to keep their collective snouts in the trough. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2025 at 10:41
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Now I may be misunderstanding this statement from an organisation I was not aware existed, but whilst not naming any level directly, seems to imply all leagues not at "elite level". Now do we really think the National leagues are the elite level. Released this afternoon (Tuesday), the Whole Game Union, WGU, have made this corruscating statement: ' Every single one of the proposals in Sir Bill Beaumont’s letter to clubs on February 28th and the supporting RFU document called “Our Commitment to the Community Game” was covered by the statement that members of the Whole Game Union made in submitting our demand for an SGM on January 9th. The RFU’s document could have been copied from the Whole Game Union’s “A Better Future For Rugby At All Levels” document sent to all RFU-registered clubs in England on Feb 17th. The RFU’s “commitment to the community game” was absent without leave before this recent flurry of activity. They had failed to notice the growing dissatisfaction with the Executive, Board and Council that was obvious from press reports for months before January 9th. Our ‘Better Future’ document summarised months of work and consultation by the WGU which identified from hundreds of clubs the root causes of their dissatisfaction with Twickenham: poor governance; unsustainable finances; bloated administrative structure and neglect of the community game in favour of the elite. The only elements overlooked by the RFU in their own version of this were the frustration caused by the payment of huge bonuses to their executives and the identification of the RFU Board’s failure to hold those executives to account. The RFU’s actions until last week had focused on defending itself from criticism over its LTIP bonus scheme. The resignation of the Chairman on December 20th was described as a personal decision linked to the “distraction” caused by the LTIP story. The announcement of the Freshfields review was limited to consideration of that bonus scheme. If you want to know what the RFU really thought, maybe the President of the RFU gave it away last December. Then, in what he thought was a private internal message, he belittled the reporting on growing discontent throughout our game as media spin and clickbait. This showed little “commitment to the community game”. It was only after the SGM letter was reluctantly accepted – having initially been rejected on trivial grounds – that the RFU announced its roadshow. And it was only when the powers that be finally left Twickenham that they seem to have found out just how deep-seated is the resentment at the unfairness meted out to clubs below the elite. What they discovered may have shocked them into action, but it was their attitudes were before they were forced to confront the truth by which they should still be judged now. Because even until the end of last week, the Board and Executive were exhibiting contempt for the Whole Game Union, without whose actions they would still be rooted in TW2, blissfully unaware of the dire state of the game for which they are responsible. Like anyone who tries to express the views of the underprivileged, the WGU is the subject of constant abuse and contempt from Twickenham. Yet only the WGU has accurately represented the collective views of hundreds of clubs and members of the RFU. It is a broad-based group with an advisory board consisting of more than 20 people from clubs at every tier, several Council members and expert former officials of the RFU. It is continually in touch with clubs from all over the country and its support is growing. The RFU would be well advised to start to take the WGU seriously, to recognise that it is the only way of hearing the collective voice of the English game and to respect its right to a central place in the critical discussions about the future of English rugby.' Think the Howitzers are now ready to fire! |
Posted By: Breakdown
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2025 at 11:55
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If Richmond isn't a community club, I don't know what is: 4/5 men's XVs, 2 women's, Vets, Colts/Juniors and 600 minis. Goes on annual tour. Works in schools to spread rugby, has defibrillator fundraising campaign and on and on. But RFC is top of Nat 1 so by some of the definitions here, it isn't a community club. I think if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck... ------------- Broken down. Beyond repair. |
Posted By: JZSmith
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2025 at 12:36
Exactly. If the definition of a community club is as suggested above there isn't a community club in NL1 and I would suggest very few in the other three NLs. Let's not attack each other in our haste to disassociate ourselves from the fully Professional game.
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Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2025 at 15:02
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Officially all Clubs from Level 3 (National 1) down are considered Community Clubs. Oversight of National 1 Clubs switched from the Professional Game Board to the Community Game Board about 5 years ago, despite complaints from National 1 Clubs. The RFU have suggested a second proposition to be voted on at the SGM, although they have yet to say how that can be added legally. That proposition is a Governance Review to be completed by the AGM in the summer. That Review would consider regionalisation of governance. I see a problem with that in that it involves the CBs (turkeys) voting for their potential abolition (Christmas). It is worth noting that the National Leagues have 1 vote on the RFU Council, probably insufficient given our influence on the game.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2025 at 21:02
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Stortford lost, Esher lost and DMP lost, Lions 5 points and a useful lift for their points for and against tally. Stortford travel to DMP next week and the Lions travel to Esher, proper jeopardy, just as tense as the tussle at the top.
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Posted By: Se7en
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2025 at 21:53
Jeopardy indeed. But in reality I would say that Leicester Lions are gone with regards to National 1, and should start planning for National 2 East/West/North for next season - which is anyone's guess. With the increasing decline in relations between the Premiership and leagues below, it will be interesting to see if Leicester Tigers will still loan players out to the Lions, or whether the Lions decide to rebuild with players of their own moving forward, as that is proven to be a more sustainable model when it comes to National League rugby.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2025 at 23:13
| I would say that the Lions connections with the Tigers and Saints is no different to what it was ten years ago, there has always been a connection, going back to when I was playing in the 1970's and 80's. Not just the Lions either, Hinckley, Loughborough Students all have connections, Leicestershire is a rugby hotbed, over 30 clubs, all with a connection to the Tigers, players have gone both ways. Three Lions player, not dr's, signed Lions played for the Tigers last Friday against Nottingham, one started, two on the bench, so we were three first choice matchday squad players down, so we got three Tigers senior academy lads who are all dr signed who have played for the Lions this season and with two of them, played last season too. They don't win games on their own, the Lions pack today were all Lions that started, no loans. The Lions are new to this level, first time ever last season, small squad, no money behind them, building a team. They now have unders teams and colts that are producing players coming through into the squad, a new club less than 30 years old, building an identity, playing some good rugby, with their own supplemented with loan players to cover injuries or non availability. If the loaned players were a magic wand, we would not be sat where we are, we would be asking for a refund if there was an expectancy to be at the top of the league. Lions core are Lions, not loaned players, they are good club men. When the Lions were promoted, there were no large groups of dr players, there was one, who went to Coventry after the Tigers released him. Yes the Lions have had players like Jack van Poortvleit and George Martin play when they were teenagers, getting their first experience of adult rugby. The Lions didn't win the league that year, but I like to think that England rugby was helped by these young players and they are young players, under 20's not knarled first team Premiership players. |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2025 at 14:39
Win at Esher, Tigerburnie, and you could well have visions of a possible great escape but I guess it really needs to be a 5-0 win in terms of points. Very interesting at both ends of the table if that happens.
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Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2025 at 16:32
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Islander - Thank you for the link to the Relegation spreadsheet. No relegation from the Championship, and just one club promoted from National One, implies that one of the bankrupt clubs must be about to be reinstated, to make up the 14 clubs at level 2. One appreciates that they will all be playing cards close to chests, but (apart from a piece about the sad death of Tom Voyce) there has been nothing from Wasps since November. There has been more activity from London Irish, most recently regarding the RFU blocking an attempt by them to join the URC. Worcester are bullish about their wish to be back at level 2 for the start of the 2025/26 season, so I conclude (2 + 2 = 5 maybe) that they are that 14th team. If the RFU document is correct and binding, most importantly for my club, we can look forward to a relaxed final five matches of this season, and not a dogfight with Esher to avoid that third relegation slot. Dare we believe that? From the messages above, most people seem to be assuming it. |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2025 at 17:36
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Dave - you wouldn’t be in a dog fight anyway. Much too good. I also believe your assumption about the 14th team given a post on the Worcester supporters website which reads: Fissler, on his rugbypass column, mentions WW Mk2 sounding out potential players to form a squad. Make of that what you will ? https://m.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s130.htm?129,17601235,17604924,page=3#msg-17604924" rel="nofollow - https://m.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s130.htm?129,17601235,17604924,page=3#msg-17604924
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Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2025 at 21:25
It appears that the 'relegation spreadsheet' mentioned above is being updated after each round of matches... latest one after last Sat as below https://www.rfulondon.com/forms/prom.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.rfulondon.com/forms/prom.pdf
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2025 at 19:44
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Second step for the Lions completed, but it does not get any easier with a rejuvenated Sale FC visiting Westleigh Park next weekend. Esher have the tricky trip to Bishops Stortford, every game has the look of a cup final from here on in.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2025 at 21:29
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Lions at home this weekend with the visit of a rejuvenated Sale FC, with the Lions coming out on top in the fixture at Haywood Road, indeed Lions won there in the last game of last season, so they will certainly have no fear coming into this fixture. Esher have a rather tricky away trip to Bishop Stortford who are still mathematically not yet safe three positions above Esher, so this too is very much another cup final match in this fascinating tussle to remain in this fine Nat 1 league. Interestingly the early predictions by the experts on this forum seem to think Bishops Stortford will prevail at home and a bit of a split as to whether Leicester Lions can pull off a win at home, whatever the outcome. A very fascinating sub plot within a very tense weekend for most of the sides in Nat1, all having something to play for as we go into the culmination of a great season of rugby at level 3.
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Posted By: Storty
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2025 at 13:52
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Must admit I hastily said relegation was a foregone conclusion a few weeks ago. However, since then Leicester have found form and Esher have dropped off. Teams around relegation often go on runs late on. I remember Taunton got 20 points from their last 4 games but it wasn't enough as others also picked up points.
Looking at the fixture list it's likely to go down to the wire. Let's hope Stortford can do Leicester a favour on Saturday  |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2025 at 17:12
| This may well go down to the wire, Lions lost to an in form Sale FC, but those two bonus points could be vital especially as Esher only got one point from their visit to Bishops Stortford. Neither team can rely on the other slipping up, a cup final every Saturday for the next few weeks for both, who blinks first. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2025 at 14:05
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Another weekend of tension and biting of fingernails, both Esher and Leicester Lions continue their fight for survival in the league. Esher welcome Birmingham Moseley to their ground where you feel a win is a must for the home side, Mose have slipped recently and have lost their way in the challenge at the top of the table, I feel they might just want to prove a point this weekend, hence my prediction of an away win. Lions travel to Dings Crusaders, interestingly this was the only fixture the Lions lost when they were promoted from Nat2 West, no doubt both sides will remember that fixture, with both trying to prove a point. I have predicted a Lions win, but under no illusion as to how hard that may be, any points from these games for either Esher or Lions will no doubt be looked at as crucial, so expect everything including the kitchen sink will be thrown into these two matches. Mathematically, Leicester Lions could get above Dings if they fail to win anymore points, so there is jeopardy for both sides here.
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Posted By: Nat1
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2025 at 18:35
| With Worcester being confirmed as the invited club to the Championship for next season and no relegation again this season, it will just be the Nat 1 Champions going up, and therefore only one other side with DMP going down to Nat 2. Both Esher and Leicester Lions with all to play for during April, it could go all the way to the last weekend. |
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2025 at 20:45
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The title could be decided this weekend. A bonus point win for Richmond means they have a 15 point lead so Roth & Rosslyn park must have a bonus point win to take it to next week. For me Dings only need 1 possibly 2 points for safety, so it still between Lions & Esher at the bottom ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2025 at 18:01
| With Esher getting no points today from their home tie with Moseley, the Lions are now just one point behind with two games to play. Lions have two home games whereas Esher have a tough trip to Plymouth next week before ending at home. Looks like it could go to the wire. |
Posted By: Nat1
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2025 at 18:05
I think all the focus will switch to the battle for survival now. What are the two remaing fixtures for both sides? Leicester Lions favourites to stay up with two home matches to come I'd say.
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Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2025 at 18:28
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Esher are away to Plymouth and home to Sedgley Park Leicester have two home games. Blackheath & Bishops Stortford
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2025 at 19:27
| Lets face it, there are no easy points on offer in this set of matches for either side, a point either way by the looks of it. Home advantage could help, but neither side have had a lot of joy at home, two good sides, just up against some very strong Nat 1 sides. |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2025 at 20:36
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Very true Tigerburnie. If it was a football game maybe one or two teams would be on the beach. That just doesn’t happen in this league. I still think Lions might edge it and form certainly favours them,but looking at the table Esher have one more win which might be crucial. If you get one more win you have a far better points difference otherwise you will need to get your points tally to one more than Esher to survive. Good luck, it’s going to be gutting for the team to go down. In the meantime the small matter of us completing our home fixtures against a team called Richmond. Apparently they are very good! 😜
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Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2025 at 21:12
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Well R2, we now have Roth in our sights so we are looking to chase down 3rd place as you rightly say you have Mond next week who will be looking to finish the job and will be on the beach when we turn up a couple of weeks later for the next instalment of the oldest and longest continuous fixture 😜 ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: Storty
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2025 at 21:36
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Relegation is very intriguing. Leicester are in better form and even when they lose generally give the opposition a good game. Esher seem to get run over quite easily most weeks but every now and then pull off a shock. Two tough fixtures for Leicester. Blackheath are a top team and there's a good chance Stortford will be off the back of 5 wins in a row when they visit.
Don't see anything other than 0 points for Esher at Plymouth (unless it's something like 60-24. However, Sedgley at home is a huge opportunity for Esher. Will enjoy watching the battle from the safety of midtable! |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2025 at 22:37
| If only the Premiership had the same jeopardy and I might take an interest in my names sake Leicester Tigers, instead of watching a side that sometimes look they are not that bothered sadly. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2025 at 17:00
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Extraordinary results in the battle at the bottom, with DMP going down fighting, seemingly showing a lot of spirit and composure. Esher seem to have been on the rough end of a clinical Plymouth Albion, whilst the Lions pulled off another famous victory getting a bonus points win at home to Blackheath, no mean feat as the close score line would suggest. So for the next two weeks at least, the Lions are in a very fragile safe spot, last day of the season again, even more grey hairs for us supporters.
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Posted By: Nat1
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2025 at 17:23
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Well done Lions, that is a good win against a very good Blackheath side, who have been playing their best rugby for several seasons. I do think you are in the driving seat to survive now, especially with these last 2 games being at home. You are halfway there now, just have to put in one last strong performance against a dangerous Bishop's Stortford team. It makes for an exciting end to the season, although nerve-wracking for Lions fans I'm sure! Esher seem to be a team who have slipped off the pace for a couple of months now really, and it's a long bus ride back to Surrey after being beaten heavily by Albion today. They'll have to throw absolutely everything at their final fixture against Sedgley Park now.
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Posted By: Storty
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2025 at 21:44
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Looks like Leicester will deservedly stay up. Imo they're a much better team than Esher, who aside from their little run a few months ago have generally been poor this season. Just had a look at they have 1 losing bonus point from their 19 losses. Leicester have 8. Points difference, Leicester - 143, Esher - 420.
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Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2025 at 13:27
| Esher were shockingly poor at Plymouth yesterday. Borrowing an expression from soccer, I feel the coaches lost the dressing room a few weeks ago. We have suffered a lot of injuries this season so have to question the S&C team. Strange decisions on interchanges don’t help, either! Sadly, change is needed. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2025 at 13:45
| Not counting any chickens, Esher are a proud club who were promoted on the back of success and the Lions know as well as anyone, how tough the step up is. Many of the Nat 1 sides are well established, or have recent history at this level or higher, they have experience that you cannot buy. I hope the Lions can prevail, but wish Esher all the best. |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2025 at 14:00
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Relegations permutations: Leicester win - Esher down Esher lose or draw - Lions are safe Esher win 4 pointer - would need Lions to lose with no bonus Esher win 5 pointer - would need Lions to lose but gain a maximum 1 bonus point |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2025 at 17:19
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For any Bishops Stortford fans( or anyone else in the area), want to make a day of it? https://www.facebook.com/leicesterlionsrfc/" rel="nofollow - Leicester Lions Rugby Club | Leicester | Facebook
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2025 at 10:32
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Well this it, tomorrows not quite do or die, but pretty damn close, it's all in the hands of those who take to the pitch. Two games with four sides who all have something to play for and not just pride, Sedge have slipped a bit and will no doubt be desperate to end on a high. Maybe not as desperate as Esher who at home, must win to stay in the league that they fought to join last season.
Bishops Stortford can finish in the top half of the league if they win on the trip to Westleigh Park, so incentive for them too, whilst Leicester Lions know that 2 points for them guarantees a place in Nat 1 for another season. Lions managed to win in the last game last season to escape the drop, can they perform another miracle again? Nail biting stuff for those involved and a great way to end the season. |
Posted By: Storty
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2025 at 12:50
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Good luck tomorrow Tiger. Stortford have been very good in recent weeks and have a pretty settled team now with a strong bench. I expect there will be plenty of tries so that should get you at least one of the two points whilst I'd also expect a close contest as Leicester have been very solid recently. It's likely the losing team will come away with a losing bonus point. And Esher winning a match would be a turn up given their form, so I'm pretty confident you'll stay up  |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2025 at 14:10
| I can understand where Esher are, just been promoted, you don't want to go back down, Lions were in that position this time last season, shame someone has to go and lets hope the best team get through, which ever that is. There has to be relegation and promotion in team league sport, otherwise it is just a cartel that will inevitably end up less interesting without any jeopardy. |