Is this the light at the end of the tunnel?
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Topic: Is this the light at the end of the tunnel?
Posted By: tigerburnie
Subject: Is this the light at the end of the tunnel?
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2025 at 18:11
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cy05pqeyq77o" rel="nofollow - Rugby Football Union: MPs call for independent review - BBC Sport
or another false dawn?
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Replies:
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2025 at 21:19
| Oncoming train. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2025 at 21:49
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More likely an angler fish. A train would prove there was a way out. The question is what would a Government review do. Unless they are going to force a change, like the regulator being created for Soccer. We could lobby to ave that regulator cover Rugby, I cannot see them setting up a separate regulator. But would that actually help. We know the 57 old farts did not work well, and the omnipotent board does not work. But do we have good ideas of what would work well? If there was a clear path forward, which all the clubs agreed on, then life would be much simpler. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 07:14
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Split the professional and amateur game. Have a representative from each county body running the amateur game. Give more autonomy to each CB to run the game according to the needs of their members. Let the Exec concentrate on the professional game.
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Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 08:57
At what level do you define Amateur Chris?
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rugbychris wrote:Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 09:17
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That's a good point. Professional in my mind would be full-time contracted players. Part-time would be amateur. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 10:25
| I think that is coming by way of diverting the vote of no confidence, pro game I think will be Prem 1 & 2, the rest go play with yourselves is the likely scenario. |
Posted By: JZSmith
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 10:29
| We had MPs getting involved when Sweeney appeared before the Select Committee over two years ago and what good did that do? So this latest intervention is likely to do nothing for the light in the tunnel in my opinion. |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 10:36
That is why I believe the change needs to come at the top level management, to a body who wants to work with all clubs in order to help them match their ambitions and give those clubs who want to progress, the opportunity to do so. Rugby Chris. Nat 1 is a National semi pro league which, I would say more than half of which, have ambitions to go into the Championship. Once you separate that you are effectively cutting that off which is not acceptable. I am not even sure how many Championship teams are fully professional for that matter. By your definition are they amateur? The problem as I see it, and we have seen elements of this already, with effectively all other leagues below the Prem, where, teams, potentially including the Championship, being used as a means for Premiership teams to send squad players on a dual registration to those clubs, say in the Championship or Nat 1, which stilts those leagues, potentially giving them an unfair advantage over many clubs. Contrary to that, when those same players are recalled back to the parent club, that has the opposite effect. This could lead clubs to a loss of identity, so everyone below the Prem may as well revert to the old Merit tables, just using the Leagues below the Prem as a means to give competitive game time to their top heavy squads. My belief is that is what the Prem clubs want (just my opinion) i.e a closed shop, which might benefit them, but not the game as a whole and certainly not the clubs below the Premiership. To me it would seem as though the Union in this case would be obviating its responsibilities to the other clubs but it is up to the clubs to decide, not to be told what they have to do. |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 12:28
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As someone closely connected with a Nat 1 Club, I don't want a CB to represent us. The CB follows the views of the majority of its Clubs, i.e. Level 8 and below. Those views are dramatically different to the views of Clubs at Levels 3 and 4. We have NLR which has 1 representative on the RFU Council for 52 semi-pro Clubs yet our CB has 2 representatives for 59 Clubs. That is unbalanced. The Governance and Representation structure needs major changes and the only way to get that change will be to get external views with no connection to the existing Board or Council. The RFGU is promising a Review with i9nitial feedback by July with further consultation after that. We need to see the detail of what is being sought, by whom and what the Terms of Reference will allow the Review to cover.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 13:07
Leicester Lions have received no squad players from the Premiership, they have and still are playing dual registered academy players.. They did have a scrum half from Coventry last year who was a "squad player", I think he played twice. To my knowledge, some of these academy players have played for other Nat 1 sides and some have had a run out in both Championship sides and in the Championship Cup games, but none have as far as I am aware played in a Premiership game, so not "squad players"
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Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 13:16
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Rothman2 - How many teams in the country have the ability to be fully professional and sustainable? None. Have a league for clubs that want to spend 80% of income on wages and then let the rest of the pyramid compete on a sustainable footing.
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 15:37
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An amateur club is one where income exceeds expenditure. In the good old days at Cambridge we got by well on: - Player Subscriptions - Match fees (remember them?) to cover laundry and post match sausage & beans - Bar income - Fundraising e.g. monthly discos and Chrisdtmas mega-raffle The only paid employee was a part time bar manager - but only on match days. We had an away coach trip once aa year! No player insurance No player wages No medical attendance We now have: - Players salaries - Coaching staff - Medical - Player insurance - Sponsorship - Gate takings - RFU funding - increased travel expectation / costs ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 16:39
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To follow up on Amateur / Professional: Level 1 - Prem - 10 clubs - Fully professional Level 2 - Champ - 12 clubs - Mix of fully professional and semi pro Level 3 - Nat 1 - 14 clubs - all semi pro with perhaps one full time player / coach Level 4 - Nat 2 - 3 x 14 clubs - mostly Semi pro but on match fees 78 clubs with payment of some description (36 to Level 3) Level 5 - Regional 1 - 6 x 12 clubs - I'm sure there's come jobs/houses/travel in there (but only guessing) Level 6 - Regional 2 - 12 x 12 clubs - hopefully amateur Level 7 - Counties 1 - 18 x 12 clubs - surely amateur 432 clubs with amateur bias Level 8, 9, 10,11 - all amateur (haven't counted them yet!) ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 16:49
Too much time on your hands
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 16:51
Retired former second row ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 17:20
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Suggestion: Levels 1 & 2 - 24 clubs as proposed (10 + 14) - inc 1 promotion & 1 relegation - funding 80% 20% Levels 3 & 4 - 56 clubs - 4 x 14 - play off for 1 promotion place London Group Midlands Group Northern Group South Western Group - No DR / loan except full season loan - England players from clubs worldwide, not just Premiership - so include Championship & BUCS for example - does not restrict their future career options - limit full time players in Levels 3 & 4 (or below) say, 2 - compulsory referee training for 2 players / club - reduce bench to 4 - is there room for a Counties Cup? Sounds familiar
 ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 18:57
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Deleted |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2025 at 21:30
The County Championship should be the pinnacle of the community game (IMHO)
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2025 at 11:11
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The key point is to ensure that the funding for the amateur game is preserved and ideally resorted to previous levels - with guarantees over future funding growth. The money comes from the international game. The so-called professional game loses money. And every one else, from Championship down, has t live within their means. Once you have funding, then you can discuss details of league structures. But, if you are not to have a walk out like the one in Lancashire, you need to start at the bottom and work up. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2025 at 11:29
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I recently wrote this on Linkedin: In 2011 Sport England cut investment in rugby because of poor participation figures. RFU chief executive John Steele commented that "I now believe we have far more realistic targets for the next two years and we are committed to creating a sound platform for growth as we move towards the home World Cup in 2015."
Its a familiar story, the RFU talking up the importance of growth in the community game but showing themselves to be totally ineffective at anything other than fudging statistics and figures. Bill Sweeney current CEO stated in 2020, "But if you don’t support your grassroots game it’s a really dangerous approach to take. They are the bedrock. The community game is our priority." The RFU spent £23.5M on community investment in 2010 and £26.5m on professional rugby. By 2024 this has increased to an under-inflation £30.5m for the community game whilst professional rugby spending soared to £65.5m!! Considering rugby participation was already in decline in 2010 it's interesting to compare men's matches in Kent from 2010 to now. The second week in October 2010 across Kent Counties Leagues and all merit leagues 114 teams competed in 57 fixtures. Across the same leagues in October this season only 37 fixtures were played. If this reflects participation levels across the country then community rugby clubs will be close to non-existent in 2040. |
Posted By: JZSmith
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2025 at 11:57
And Sweeney's successors will still be sipping their gin and tonics, drawing massive salaries and talking absolute bo**ocks whilst our MPs think about setting up a review.
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Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2025 at 15:43
| Clubs will continue to go to the wall and schools will continue to stop including rugby as part of their sporting curriculum. Contact rugby will become impossible to find for those that don't have large established clubs on their doorsteps. We are all watching it happen. |
Posted By: JZSmith
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2025 at 12:46
| We aren't disagreeing Chris! |