National League Rugby Discussion Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk > Regional 1
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Promotion
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

IMPORTANT Remember to read the rules of the board and abide by them when posting.

Promotion

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 16>
Author
Message
Lord_Kitchener View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular
Avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2017
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 109
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord_Kitchener Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 13:12
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Presumably, one would be Old Albanians, as they have got a 5 point deduction.

If CS Stags withdraw, the games they played are null and void.
The ranking of the third place teams is on a points per game basis.

So
Hertford would now be on 71 points from 19 games of 3.74 points per game.
Blackburn would be on 81/21 = 3.86 points per game.

However, according to their website, Stags are intending to play next week - and to pay tribute to Stevie Fuller in a buffet after the match.

If CS Stags complete the season, albeit with a number of walkovers, Hertford keeps the points and wins. But the walk-over is not counted if the calculation needs to go to points difference per game.

That's the problem, Civil Service don't seem to have a choice about withdrawing. The RFU (or LSE RFU) are kicking them out unless they appeal by Friday apparently

On tha basis that the precedent is if you give 5 walkovers in a season, you are withdrawn. Nothing specific in the regs about this.
Back to Top
kempstonblue View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2020
Location: Kempston
Status: Offline
Points: 246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kempstonblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 07:07
After the promotions it’s the shuffling of the pack that will be most entertaining.
A new league from North and Midlands 
Another from South West and London

As Bedfords second club Ath are already promoted, it is interesting that whilst in the past they have been on the edge of Midlands Premier, it seems with geography not always matching club numbers possible Ath could be playing away anywhere from Leicestershire to Hertfordshire next season. 

With 26 clubs at least to be promoted into the six leagues, going to be a lot of new visitors at our local grounds, and new grounds to visit.

I can’t begin to work out how many promotions might be needed to fill level 6, with 4 extra leagues. 


Edited by kempstonblue - 11 Mar 2022 at 07:10
Looking forward to new beginnings.
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 8778
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 10:06
Counting on my fingers, and I might not have this quite right.

2; Championship; No promotion, No relegation
3: National 1: One up, two down
4: National 2 One up from each league, no relegation, one extra league
5: Regional Premier: Two up from each league, plus 2 best placed third place teams, two extra leagues
6; Regional 1: Two up from each league, plus 10 best placed third place teams, four extra leagues.
7: Regional 2: Two up from each league, plus 10 best placed third place teams.

As far as I know, the structure at levels 7 and below are still to be determined, with each CB voting whether to admit club second teams into the leagues.
Blood and Sand
Back to Top
marigold View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 2019
Location: Eltham
Status: Online
Points: 426
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 10:16
CQ I reckon Donny will win their appeal and the league and go up. Was informed both Surrey and Middlesex clubs have voted not to allow club 2nd teams into the leagues.-seems a bit of a waste of time the RFU spending over a year deciding that this was a good thing for the community game if the local clubs can within a month decide they do not want it. Mind you when did turkeys ever vote for xmas.
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 8778
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 10:52
As far as I am aware,
Essex and Leicestershire voted no.
North Midlands and Eastern Counties voted yes.

Blood and Sand
Back to Top
Scrumtime View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 597
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 11:09
Originally posted by marigold marigold wrote:

CQ I reckon Donny will win their appeal and the league and go up. Was informed both Surrey and Middlesex clubs have voted not to allow club 2nd teams into the leagues.-seems a bit of a waste of time the RFU spending over a year deciding that this was a good thing for the community game if the local clubs can within a month decide they do not want it. Mind you when did turkeys ever vote for xmas.

Just under £1 mil on sorting out 2nd xv rugby " for the good of the game" I was told by a member on the council that they are looking at for costs for this ... another total waste of time and money, but people who do not have a clue
Back to Top
Mark W-J View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar

Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3245
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 11:43
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Counting on my fingers, and I might not have this quite right.

2; Championship; No promotion, No relegation
3: National 1: One up, two down
4: National 2 One up from each league, no relegation, one extra league
5: Regional Premier: Two up from each league, plus 2 best placed third place teams, two extra leagues
6; Regional 1: Two up from each league, plus 10 best placed third place teams, four extra leagues.
7: Regional 2: Two up from each league, plus 10 best placed third place teams.

As far as I know, the structure at levels 7 and below are still to be determined, with each CB voting whether to admit club second teams into the leagues.
Almost right!  I think it's three up from each league at level 6 & 7, according to this document:
13.2.6 Principles of Promotion
In order to achieve the League Restructuring for the 2022-23 Season, at the conclusion of the 2021-22 Season the following principles of promotion shall apply:
(a) Level 1 (Premiership) and Level 2 (Championship): promotion and relegation as between Level 1 and the Championship shall be as agreed by the RFU and notified to the Clubs;
(b) Level 3: subject to Regulation 5, the top Club in Level 3 shall be promoted to Level 2 or, if notified by the Committee, the second to top Club in addition to the top Club;
(c) Level 4: the top Club in each Level 4 League will be promoted to Level 3 or such other number as notified by the Committee in order to effect the league sizes set out in Regulation 13.2.4;
(d) Level 5: the top two Clubs in each Level 5 League will be promoted to Level 4 or such other number as notified by the Committee in order to effect the league sizes set out in Regulation 13.2.4;
(e) Level 6: the top three Clubs in each Level 6 League will be promoted to Level 5 or such other number as notified by the Committee in order to effect the league sizes set out in Regulation 13.2.4;
(f) at Level 7, (subject to Regulation 13.2.6(g)) the top three Clubs in each of the supporting 12 or 13 club Leagues and the top four clubs in each of the supporting 14 club leagues at the end of the Season shall be promoted (unless otherwise approved by the Committee). Any remaining spaces in the higher league will be determined at the end of the season by such applicable criteria as notified by the
RFU to the Clubs;
Back to Top
Thatbloke View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 1379
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 11:49
I have been present on several "Zoom" calls "Webinars" etc etc on this very subject and thankfully we in the North Midlands with a lot of lobbying of the clubs managed to get this through (motion defeated but not by enough margin to overturn the RFU default position)
In simple terms this is how it was put to us
- RFU announces new league structure after "alleged" mass consultation and discussion
- RFU then realises "Oops we haven't got enough clubs to fill all the gaps further down the pyramid in which case unwilling clubs get sucked into promotions they don't want and end up doing more travelling which is the exact opposite of what this was all supposed to address
- RFU solution was to invite 2nd XV's into the ECC capped at max Level 7 (to be reviewed in 3 years)
It will certainly work for my club and our region especially for those on the extremities of the North Mids who's 2nd XV's were either having to travel long distances to play or having multiple cry-offs from opposition unwilling to travel. In the season pre-Covid our 2nd XV's travelling to away fixtures was in excess of that done by our semi-pro 1st XV which is absolutely bonkers
Hope that sheds some light - happy to answer any more questions that anyone may have
The number of promotions further down the pyramid will now be clearly affected by how many clubs enter their 2nd XV's and at what level despite what the initial guidelines just posted by MarkW-J may say



Edited by Thatbloke - 11 Mar 2022 at 11:53
Back to Top
WESTCOMBE RANGER View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Westcombe Park

Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2018
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WESTCOMBE RANGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 14:06
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

I have been present on several "Zoom" calls "Webinars" etc etc on this very subject and thankfully we in the North Midlands with a lot of lobbying of the clubs managed to get this through (motion defeated but not by enough margin to overturn the RFU default position)
In simple terms this is how it was put to us
- RFU announces new league structure after "alleged" mass consultation and discussion
- RFU then realises "Oops we haven't got enough clubs to fill all the gaps further down the pyramid in which case unwilling clubs get sucked into promotions they don't want and end up doing more travelling which is the exact opposite of what this was all supposed to address
- RFU solution was to invite 2nd XV's into the ECC capped at max Level 7 (to be reviewed in 3 years)
It will certainly work for my club and our region especially for those on the extremities of the North Mids who's 2nd XV's were either having to travel long distances to play or having multiple cry-offs from opposition unwilling to travel. In the season pre-Covid our 2nd XV's travelling to away fixtures was in excess of that done by our semi-pro 1st XV which is absolutely bonkers
Hope that sheds some light - happy to answer any more questions that anyone may have
The number of promotions further down the pyramid will now be clearly affected by how many clubs enter their 2nd XV's and at what level despite what the initial guidelines just posted by MarkW-J may say

A question I have for season 23/24 and thereafter, is " Would clubs still retain some rights to refuse a level transfer " 
I ask this because in the past we have seen teams such as Hinckley and Amphill playing in Kent, and currently North Walsham have two fixtures on the South Coast and vice versa. 
If the whole idea is to make the leagues more regionalised, there could be.  trouble ahead.

The older I get, the better I was.
Back to Top
SmilingD View Drop Down
Academy player
Academy player
Avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 2018
Location: Saffron Walden
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmilingD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 14:11
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

As far as I am aware,
Essex and Leicestershire voted no.
North Midlands and Eastern Counties voted yes.


Not quite correct Camquin. Eastern Counties did not hold a vote (it was optional), because virtually all the lower XVs in EC are already in the league structure (albeit at L9 and below).

I understand that Middlesex voted no, as did Hertfordshire but not by the 2/3 majority required to take effect. Which all makes for a bit of a muddle in this particular quadrant of the London division.

Meanwhile some clubs are playing their final games of the season with no clarity about what they are aiming for and the kind of calculations that are shown here about numbers being promoted or upgraded could all be thrown into disarray if lots of 2nd XVs appear at L7.

And when you ask the RFU how they are going to ensure that a team that is billed as a 2nd or 3rd XV actually is a 2nd or 3rd XV when they play, there is silence in return.
Back to Top
PiffPaff View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Location: Manchester
Status: Offline
Points: 938
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 14:33
Meanwhile in the North only Cheshire voted in favour of Lower XV entry. That will be interesting as the remaining Lancashire Level 7 Clubs will probably exit from the RFU Leagues if Lower XVs come in meaning any Lower XVs joining the North West (I'm told its a maximum of 3 clubs) RFU structure will be playing themselves every other week. 

Edited by PiffPaff - 11 Mar 2022 at 14:34
Crouch, Bind, Tweet!
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 8778
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 14:59
I bow to your superior knowledge (and tennis prowess).
Given Herts and Mddx run a combined league, how is that going to work?
And of course, Colchester lower teams plays in the Eastern Counties leagues, so is it in Essex or EC?

If I were at the RFU, I would have been asking the Hockey Association and KNHB how they manage, I believe both permit lower XI's in the main pyramid, and I think permit clubs to have two teams in one league.  I know CUCBC fine any college where a lower boat finishes above a higher one in the bumps.

But I think I have already made my views on the reorg once or twice on this board.
Blood and Sand
Back to Top
Thatbloke View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 1379
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 15:12
SmilingD
These were the reservations made by the clubs lower down the pyramid who were dead against letting 2nd XV's in, the fact that somehow these teams would be "loaded" with "1st teamers". I'm not sure how that could happen?
Clubs at Level 4 will have a 26 game league structure aswell as a requirement for a 20 man match day squad, Clubs at Level 5 26 games, 18 man squad.
Most, if not all clubs, run their 2nd XV's as a development tool for their younger players, not as an additional way of conquering the world! Most Saturdays are designated league Saturdays so both 1sts and 2nds would be playing on the same day and even on the very odd occasion, if any, when they weren't player welfare and family pressures would dictate time off rather than bolstering the 2nd XV.
There was also a fear that certain leagues would be overloaded with 2nd XV 's but my very rough calculations indicate that number would be more likely  be 1 or 2 per league but that is obviously subject to regional variations
The other concern was that there would be mass relegations to accommodate these teams but if my above calculations are correct these fears also appear unfounded. They were also concerned about getting "hammered" every week. Again unlikely I would suggest if the 2nds go in at the right levels. Good 1st team doesn't always translate to good 2nd team by the way, every club is different
Back to Top
Scrumtime View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 597
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 15:53
I cannot understand why we just don't do the old fashion thing, you know sometimes they were the best and it works for years and years, till a load of people at TW2 decided to shell out a load of wonga on a survey or 20.. Over £1m,, jokers!!

Your 1st xv plays team A 
Your 2s play team A 2s 
Your 3s do the same so on so on down the club

If your 1s are away, take the 2s with you, so when you are at home you have both main sides at home as well.

Saves on travel costs.

Think Ill stick an invoice into the RFU for that one .. pretty simple really!!
Back to Top
Thatbloke View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 1379
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 16:01
Because Scrumtime - some clubs only run 1 team, others run 2,3, 4 etc etc
It worked in the old days I admit but that was before a) Leagues and b) professionalism.
Whilst we're being nostalgic we would always have 1st, 3rds and Colts playing Club A let's say at home whilst 2nds & 4ths would be on a bus away at Club A and vice versa later in the season and it WAS brilliant!
Good luck with the invoice!? 
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 8778
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 17:06
I think it worked in the mythical past, where summer holidays were three months long and the sky was always blue and England could win at cricket.

As Thatbloke says, in practice it happened a lot less than we remember, for the practical reasons that you could never guarantee clubs had the same number of sides.

Fixture secretaries were on the phone all week searching up a fixture to replace one that had been scratched. And no matter how good your side was, you could never get a fixture against a "senior" club.

Blood and Sand
Back to Top
SurreyRugby View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Location: -
Status: Offline
Points: 93
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SurreyRugby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 17:27
2nd teams should play in better organised merit table or 2nd team leagues. In my mind no 2nd XV should be inserted at any level in the senior structure, at any level. If these 2nd XV's want league status then create separate club structures. Ealing, London Welsh (when they had a senior team), Saracens, Wasps, London Scottish have all got teams in the league structure. They operate separately and that seems fine to me.
Back to Top
Redted View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1007
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 17:39
All of these are Professional clubs with separate amateur set ups not community clubs running 2nd teams. Merit tables may be OK in high density population areas but in low density population areas 2nd teams need to be able to play a mixture of other 2nd teams and lower level 1st teams to get competitive matches.
Back to Top
Thatbloke View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 1379
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 17:43
But they are then no longer your 2nd XV they are a separate club and though they may share facilities players are not interchangeable until there are only 2 levels between them plus your newly created team have to start at the bottom of the pyramid which is why not many clubs have chosen to go down this route in the past. In our region we have
Stourbridge/Stourbridge Lions
Birmingham Moseley/Moseley Oak
I don't think there are any more??
Just read RedTed post and fully agree 


Edited by Thatbloke - 11 Mar 2022 at 17:44
Back to Top
carlos fandango View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Offline
Points: 803
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlos fandango Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 18:12
Cam, from what I remember when my daughter played hockey. A player would be registered to a team in the club at the start of the season and that's where they would remain. There was some chance of movement in exceptional circumstances but once registered in the new team, that's where you had to stay.

Hockey doesn't, obviously, have the same injury rate as rugby, so I'm not sure their system would work.
Agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed on here about the cluster**** the RFU are making of our sport. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 16>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.