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What is a Rugby Club
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jimbojetset View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 14:35
Given the current issues surrounding Worcester and the proposed “link” to Stourbridge you have to wonder what exactly constitutes a rugby club. Because, it appears that Worcester Warriors, who have no players, no minis and juniors section, no academy and no coaches really only possess two things 1) a name (soon to be changed) and a venue (which may or may not be sold). So, what’s in it for Stourbridge? If the directors of “Worcester warriors” want to be in the championship via getting Stourbridge promoted, what becomes of a club who actually have, players, coaches, M&Js, a venue etc? Or, do they hand all that over and just become a name? 

It is difficult to run a sustainable rugby club no matter what level you play at. Costs have gone up, paying  and playing members are often stagnant or declining. Offset against this the increasing expectations of the RFU often outside any realistic abilities of most clubs to achieve those goals. 

Also given the lack of real profit of any rugby club in England, you have to wonder if it will just be the playground of those people who have £100 million in the bank and have a great idea about how to end up with £100,000. 

As Richard Branson once said when he was asked how to become a millionaire, he responded with start with a Billion and then buy and airline, you’ll soon be down to a million. Same would apply to rugby clubs it seems.
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KnightsBoy View Drop Down
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Points: 3154 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KnightsBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 14:42
A few years ago, I remember chatting with Northampton Saints fans at Castle Park when they visited.  The one recollection i have that struck home was the comment made by them about visiting real rugby clubs with the saints after relegation.
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WEvans View Drop Down
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Points: 1456 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 14:59
What is a rugby club?

Not Worcester/Sixways not Defaulting Wasps and not anyone in the Premiership as a starter. 
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Big Eddie View Drop Down
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Points: 5086 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 15:13
Originally posted by jimbojetset jimbojetset wrote:

Given the current issues surrounding Worcester and the proposed “link” to Stourbridge you have to wonder what exactly constitutes a rugby club. Because, it appears that Worcester Warriors, who have no players, no minis and juniors section, no academy and no coaches really only possess two things 1) a name (soon to be changed) and a venue (which may or may not be sold). So, what’s in it for Stourbridge? If the directors of “Worcester warriors” want to be in the championship via getting Stourbridge promoted, what becomes of a club who actually have, players, coaches, M&Js, a venue etc? Or, do they hand all that over and just become a name? 

It is difficult to run a sustainable rugby club no matter what level you play at. Costs have gone up, paying  and playing members are often stagnant or declining. Offset against this the increasing expectations of the RFU often outside any realistic abilities of most clubs to achieve those goals. 

Also given the lack of real profit of any rugby club in England, you have to wonder if it will just be the playground of those people who have £100 million in the bank and have a great idea about how to end up with £100,000. 

As Richard Branson once said when he was asked how to become a millionaire, he responded with start with a Billion and then buy and airline, you’ll soon be down to a million. Same would apply to rugby clubs it seems.

Your best ever post Jimbo Lad.......I completely agree with everything you have said......and a very good forum topic to boot.


Edited by Big Eddie - 14 Feb 2023 at 15:13
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backrowb View Drop Down
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Points: 1682 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backrowb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 15:58
The team I support has adult and junior/mini teams. We played a team, far better than us but who only run a 1st team.   The re-arranged fixture saw both sides have a large number of players unavailable.  

The other team are usually far stronger than us, but on this occasion we could bring great lads in from lower teams, all of which came from the junior sides.

We won.

For me, we are a rugby club, they are a Rugby team. 
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Points: 12002 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 16:08
I do not believe Stourbridge are acting irrationally. So there needs to be a rational explanation.

I suspect what is in it for Stourbridge is enough money to clear the debts so they can continue as a purely amateur club.

Currently, they are in debt - incurred mainly for the 3g pitch - and it needs to be repaid soon.
With the RFU having a charge over the club's assets.

They struggle to generate enough income to cover maintenance, repairs etc, let alone generate cash to repay the debt.

They had a semi-pro team, though the wages were covered by a sponsor.
But will the sponsor want to continue if they are at level 5?

So the risk is that if they do nothing - they could be wound up anyway,

My guess, and this is wild speculation, is they could also be about to lose the sponsor, in which case they would be looking at using a team that is mainly Lions players next season anyway, and therefore risk being relegated again next season ending up at level 6 in just over a year's time.

Or they could look to strengthen the Lions, and gain promotion to Level 6 in just over a year's time.

As I say, wild speculation, except for the existence of the debt to the RFU.

But if my speculation is correct, but if Worcester are willing to pay for the league position, without needing a charge over Stourton Park, and again I do not know if that is the case, then it looks a sensible decision.

And as I say, I like to think club committees try to make sensible decisions based on the information they have.



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Big Eddie View Drop Down
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Points: 5086 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 16:13
I suspect there are going to be a lot of definitions very similar to backrowb's.

That is what it is all about,..... someone steps up and gives of their very best and everyone is proud of his or her achievement. It is one club....everyone can aspire to the 1st xv and give of their best. Everyone is proud of the club, its supporters and can enjoy the rugby camaraderie....whether they are playing social rugby or league rugby or merely spectating
 
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tigerburnie View Drop Down
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Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

What is a rugby club?

Not Worcester/Sixways not Defaulting Wasps and not anyone in the Premiership as a starter. 
Well taking some of the points in the OP, there's some excellent academies in the Premiership and I still think there's an element of a rugby club ethos in some of them, money has certainly trashed the original concept of what a rugby club should be, but it's not just at Premiership level where that has happened.
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PiffPaff View Drop Down
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Points: 1126 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2023 at 18:20
Definition of 99.2% of rugby clubs in England Run very professionally by amateurs.

As opposed to the remaining 0.8% of clubs and the national governing body which are professionals running them very amateurishly 
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jimbojetset View Drop Down
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Points: 450 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimbojetset Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2023 at 09:57
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

What is a rugby club?

Not Worcester/Sixways not Defaulting Wasps and not anyone in the Premiership as a starter. 
Well taking some of the points in the OP, there's some excellent academies in the Premiership and I still think there's an element of a rugby club ethos in some of them, money has certainly trashed the original concept of what a rugby club should be, but it's not just at Premiership level where that has happened.

Thinking further on this.  Strip away members/supporters/players/volunteers/sponsors/M&J's etc. and you're really only left with intellectual property and unless there's a huge reason to play for them, they really only exist as an idea, not a club. Currently Worcester is purely a concept club, it only exists on paper.

Going to Camquin's point, most semi-pro/amateur clubs are run by people who operate with the best of intentions, but sometimes they go awry. If Stourbridge needs to be rescued, then, Worcester coming in to save them might work, but, at what cost?

Also, would you want to be rescued by a club who has no real interest in your club apart from as a vessel to move some players into the championship under the name of a club that currently only exists in theory? They might (and I have no idea what the financial situation at Stourbridge is) do a Manchester and just free fall for a few seasons to rise again in a more sustainable way?

When we were down in Taunton the captain of rugby and I had an interesting if somewhat alcohol fuelled conversation. Running a rugby club never stops, it doesn't have an end point. Planning, sustainability, volunteers all need refreshing, regenerating and developing. Without doing that, your club will die. Focussing on winning a league at the cost of everything else, appears to be a clear way for a club to commit suicide. 
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billesleyexile View Drop Down
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Points: 1855 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2023 at 10:29
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

I still think there's an element of a rugby club ethos in some of them, money has certainly trashed the original concept of what a rugby club should be, but it's not just at Premiership level where that has happened.

Hmm, been thinking about this - I think the 'one team' clubs are a new thing, but historically the top sides tended to look a lot more like them than not. 

In the days of closed fixture lists where you moved club to change standard rather than the club itself changing standard then at the top level you might get 3, 4, 5 x men's XVs out, but that might be it. The bigger (number of players and age groups) clubs never totally mapped across to the 'top' clubs - who (rightly or wrongly), had an expectation that if anyone good turned up at a nearby 'junior' club then they'd just make a phone call and invite them to play. 

'Thanks 'junior' club, they're playing for us now.'

Top clubs might have got a colts side out alongside their firsts, Utd, etc, but certainly no M&J, or ladies, or touch, or over 50s walking rugby etc.

But then does that make the top sides of the 'Golden Age' not proper clubs? If they chose their players rather than their players choosing them.* 

Actually I can think of one current premiership club who have always been clear that their job was to be the senior club in  their area, and they didn't historically need to do anything else because they had an ecosystem of other clubs that would feed them to do that, but it's rare to see even a fan put that in writing, never mind the club itself.

*although player choice still happened - one of the Coventry and England greats, PB Jackson, should on paper have been a Moseley player. Lived in Birmingham, went to a school that fed Moseley with players and whose own old boys side (Old Edwardians) at that time not only had a first class fixture list, but weren't that far from the Reddings themselves. 

Chose Coventry because, totally hard headedly, he could get an easier bus to Coundon Road than the Reddings. I think his decision even surprised Coventry to be fair!
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WEvans View Drop Down
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Points: 1456 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2023 at 15:23
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

What is a rugby club?

Not Worcester/Sixways not Defaulting Wasps and not anyone in the Premiership as a starter. 
Well taking some of the points in the OP, there's some excellent academies in the Premiership and I still think there's an element of a rugby club ethos in some of them, money has certainly trashed the original concept of what a rugby club should be, but it's not just at Premiership level where that has happened.

Yes but academies that hardly play any rugby. The players are loaned to proper rugby clubs to play!

There are certainly a few non-Premiership clubs that have lost their soul due to money but the percentage that have is rather less than the 100% figure in our so-called top league.
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