National League Rugby Discussion Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk > Clubhouse chat
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Why do the RFU give clubs money?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

IMPORTANT Remember to read the rules of the board and abide by them when posting.

Why do the RFU give clubs money?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 7>
Author
Message
WEvans View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 1456
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 15:06
Tony Rowe's words just highlight the Premiership clubs total lack of understanding of the situation. Just ignore the financial mess they are in just hold out their hands for more money.

Ring-fence the lot of them and keep them away from the rest of the game.
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 15:37
Do you really think the Championship has the ability to produce international standard players that could win a world cup, the Premiership did.
Back to Top
JohnLowe View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 24 Oct 2015
Location: Doncaster
Status: Offline
Points: 302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnLowe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 16:00
It would be interesting to know how many of our squad that won the World Cup in 2003 ever played in the level below the Premiership.  If none then TB’s comments might be valid; if quite a few then they are not. No doubt someone cleverer than me will have all the stats. However I think the relative strengths of Levels 1 and 2 are a lot closer now than they were then!

Edited by JohnLowe - 13 Jun 2023 at 16:06
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 16:22
I think Rowe is now realising that if you want to be competitive in Europe, it costs a lot of money and he might be running short.
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 16:29
Originally posted by JohnLowe JohnLowe wrote:

It would be interesting to know how many of our squad that won the World Cup in 2003 ever played in the level below the Premiership.  If none then TB’s comments might be valid; if quite a few then they are not. No doubt someone cleverer than me will have all the stats. However I think the relative strengths of Levels 1 and 2 are a lot closer now than they were then!
It's fair to say that in 2003 academies were not what they are now, Martin Johnson for example began as a colts player with Wigston, one of the two clubs that became the Leicester Lions, he went to New Zealand and played iin their junior All Blacks, had he chosen to stay over there, he would probably have been an All Black. He went to Tigers as a young man and grew with the first team, never went near an academy, don't think Neil Back did either. Looking at todays likely England World Cup players, most will be from academies, some played as dr's in the National leagues to get experience of adult rugby. Jack van Poortvleit and George Martin both played for Leicester Lions in Nat 2, but we could hardly claim "we made them"
Back to Top
FHLH View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Cambridge

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 5575
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 19:03
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

........   we could hardly claim "we made them"

The various stages in a players career include:

Mini/Youth
School
Colts
Premiership first talent trawl
First experience of the game at a Community club
Polishing in (National Leagues) & Championship
Premiership in various guises

Not sure where Academies fit in


Edited by FHLH - 13 Jun 2023 at 19:03
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 19:55
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

........   we could hardly claim "we made them"

The various stages in a players career include:

Mini/Youth
School
Colts
Premiership first talent trawl
First experience of the game at a Community club
Polishing in (National Leagues) & Championship
Premiership in various guises

Not sure where Academies fit in
Back to Top
cheshire exile View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 2604
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheshire exile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 21:07
Originally posted by JohnLowe JohnLowe wrote:

It would be interesting to know how many of our squad that won the World Cup in 2003 ever played in the level below the Premiership.  If none then TB’s comments might be valid; if quite a few then they are not. No doubt someone cleverer than me will have all the stats. However I think the relative strengths of Levels 1 and 2 are a lot closer now than they were then!

Trevor Woodman was at Launceston before heading north to Gloucester.
Back to Top
Richard Lowther View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: 19 May 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 6632
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 21:41
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

I think Rowe is now realising that if you want to be competitive in Europe, it costs a lot of money and he might be running short.

What are the financial benefits of an England club winning the European Cup?

There is prize money but I can't find a reliable recent figure and then I presume being European Champions helps in recruiting sponsors and asking for increased amounts from them.

But on the other hand clubs have to have bigger squads with the resulting increase in costs - salaries, NIC, and travelling. 

So at the end of the day, how much PROFIT does it really provide?
Moderator National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 12017
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 22:11
The only number I can see was in an article in the Express from 2019, which suggested the 2018 winners got €600,000, with €400,000 to the runner-up.


Sweeney Delenda Est
Back to Top
FHLH View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Cambridge

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 5575
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2023 at 22:13
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:


Good system from U-15 onwards. If my son's experience with the Saints is anything to go by, it's a very harsh regime that saw some quit the game and occasionally go to American Football 

Where do the U-6s go?


Edited by FHLH - 13 Jun 2023 at 22:14
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2023 at 08:41
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:


Good system from U-15 onwards. If my son's experience with the Saints is anything to go by, it's a very harsh regime that saw some quit the game and occasionally go to American Football 

Where do the U-6s go?
Leicester Lions
Back to Top
WEvans View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 1456
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2023 at 11:05
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Do you really think the Championship has the ability to produce international standard players that could win a world cup, the Premiership did.

As always a strawman argument. I said nothing of the sort because I couldn't care less.
Back to Top
FHLH View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Cambridge

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 5575
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2023 at 12:21
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Leicester Lions

I was trying to highlight the impact on a player at various levels. I believe football transfer percentage payments go quite far down the career history so that mega million transfer dribbles down

If rugby emulates football there'll be a discussion to be had about who developed the player - but that's a long way off






Edited by FHLH - 14 Jun 2023 at 12:56
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2023 at 12:28
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Do you really think the Championship has the ability to produce international standard players that could win a world cup, the Premiership did.

As always a strawman argument. I said nothing of the sort because I couldn't care less.

You wish to deny players the opportunity of playing at the highest level, you wish to deny clubs the chance(a very slim one at the moment obviously due to the PRL intransigence) to play in the top flight?
Your jealous hatred of everything Premiership is beginning to affect your thought process, Jersey and Doncaster have stated they want to play in the league.
Back to Top
GreenThrough&Through View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 27 May 2014
Location: Threshfield
Status: Offline
Points: 743
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GreenThrough&Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 11:23
I've been thinking about the idea of franchising and the supposed benefits that are put forward.

One question i have is, financially, what's the difference between a promotion and relegation league and a closed shop franchise? Income isn't sufficient to cover costs in the current situation - where is the evidence that by franchising, income will suddenly see a HUGE increase (and it will need to be huge given the millions lost each year by every Premiership club).

There seems to be a belief amongst some that by closing the shop and franchising, investors will suddenly come pouring out of the woodwork with open wallets and blank cheque books. But nothing supports this idea.

As an example, the 6 Nations is a closed shop. Not so long ago yet in better financial times than now, RBS' sponsorship was coming to an end and the 6 nations demanded an increase in value to renew the deal. RBS offered a similar amount to their current deal. 6 nations committee thought they knew better, said no thanks and effectively went out to tender. No-one else came close to matching what RBS had offered, let alone what the committee wanted. So they returned cap in hand to RBS to accept what was offered. RBS told them that was off the table and instead offered a lower price, albeit the highest the 6 nations could get. They signed.

Financial belts continue to be tightened and will likely continue to be so for a while. Rugby doesn't have the profile of football and unfortunately never will. The result being investors/commercial partners will always look to football first to spend their £s as they are likely to receive a better return.

Increased central funding is not the answer. The game is significantly bigger than a dozen or so clubs at the top of the tree.

So where costs outstrip income, and income isn't going to increase enough to cover those costs, you HAVE to cut costs. It's the only solution.

The biggest cost to nearly every business is its' people. For professional rugby to survive in England, players are going to have to accept that wages will be lower - a lot lower. If they don't like that, go find another job.


Edited by GreenThrough&Through - 15 Jun 2023 at 11:25
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 12:11
We don't know the details, but there was talk of promotion and relegation, no mention of ring fencing any of the leagues.
Back to Top
Richard Lowther View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: 19 May 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 6632
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 13:11
Originally posted by GreenThrough&Through GreenThrough&Through wrote:

I've been thinking about the idea of franchising and the supposed benefits that are put forward.

One question i have is, financially, what's the difference between a promotion and relegation league and a closed shop franchise? Income isn't sufficient to cover costs in the current situation - where is the evidence that by franchising, income will suddenly see a HUGE increase (and it will need to be huge given the millions lost each year by every Premiership club).

There seems to be a belief amongst some that by closing the shop and franchising, investors will suddenly come pouring out of the woodwork with open wallets and blank cheque books. But nothing supports this idea.

As an example, the 6 Nations is a closed shop. Not so long ago yet in better financial times than now, RBS' sponsorship was coming to an end and the 6 nations demanded an increase in value to renew the deal. RBS offered a similar amount to their current deal. 6 nations committee thought they knew better, said no thanks and effectively went out to tender. No-one else came close to matching what RBS had offered, let alone what the committee wanted. So they returned cap in hand to RBS to accept what was offered. RBS told them that was off the table and instead offered a lower price, albeit the highest the 6 nations could get. They signed.

Financial belts continue to be tightened and will likely continue to be so for a while. Rugby doesn't have the profile of football and unfortunately never will. The result being investors/commercial partners will always look to football first to spend their £s as they are likely to receive a better return.

Increased central funding is not the answer. The game is significantly bigger than a dozen or so clubs at the top of the tree.

So where costs outstrip income, and income isn't going to increase enough to cover those costs, you HAVE to cut costs. It's the only solution.

The biggest cost to nearly every business is its' people. For professional rugby to survive in England, players are going to have to accept that wages will be lower - a lot lower. If they don't like that, go find another job.

The arguments put forward for a ring fenced league generally fall into groups. 

1) On the field - without the threat of relegation teams are freed from the risk of failure and can try something new and play open running rugby without fear.   There is little evidence that this happens in practice. 

2) Off the field - knowing you are in the league for X period then you can budget accordingly as you are not constantly fearing relegation and the loss of income.   Again little evidence that club owners change their financial mindsets to make the game more financially stable.  
Moderator National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 13:19
There is no justification for ring fencing any league in rugby except financial, it is counter productive to the game as a spectacle by not allowing reward for success, without promotion and relegation it is no longer a competition, which is the very definition of sport.
Back to Top
clieves View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 09 Jan 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 427
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clieves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 13:33
Originally posted by JohnLowe JohnLowe wrote:

It would be interesting to know how many of our squad that won the World Cup in 2003 ever played in the level below the Premiership.  If none then TB’s comments might be valid; if quite a few then they are not. No doubt someone cleverer than me will have all the stats. However I think the relative strengths of Levels 1 and 2 are a lot closer now than they were then!

Ben Kay, Will Greenwood & Paul Grayson all played at Waterloo
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 7>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.