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Why do the RFU give clubs money?

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WEvans View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 14:23
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Do you really think the Championship has the ability to produce international standard players that could win a world cup, the Premiership did.

As always a strawman argument. I said nothing of the sort because I couldn't care less.

You wish to deny players the opportunity of playing at the highest level, you wish to deny clubs the chance(a very slim one at the moment obviously due to the PRL intransigence) to play in the top flight?
Your jealous hatred of everything Premiership is beginning to affect your thought process, Jersey and Doncaster have stated they want to play in the league.

Yet another strawman argument. At absolutely no stage whatsoever have I said I wish to deny players the opportunity to play at the top level. I said I would ring-fence the Premiership clubs to keep (those that run them) away from the rest of the game. There would be absolutely nothing to stop any players joining teams in a ring-fenced league as they do now in an almost ring-fenced league anyway.

Your desperation for an argument really is incredibly childish and can be witnessed on the very many boards on which you post and by the way your views often change from board to board depending on who you want to argue with at the time.

I have no wish to engage in any further discussion with you and will only respond to your posts if you direct future posts at me. I'd be grateful if you would do the same.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 15:12
Danny GrewHuckleberry gained his first cap while still at his home club Cov.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 15:13
Oh for heaven's sake. Danny Grewc ock.
Ridiculous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 15:24
In the male (and now female) game the "promising" youngsters are steered away from teenage clubs at 15 and in many cases pointed at specific colleges for their 6th form years.

For them to be spotted at that age a lot of their natural talent has already been brought out by clubs (down to levels 6 or 7 in my area), the academies have a monopoly on those from certain cb's so they can't really be said to be doing massive amounts pre 18.

Last year the national u18 girls cup was decimated as in Aug the a new "performance college league" sprung into existence with girls playing in that on a Wednesday told not to play for clubs on the Sunday. The same year the girls age grades changed from 13,15,18 to 12,14,16,18 reducing u18 numbers by a 1/3. Most of the clubs usually making the regional finals struggled to even get a team out and the results list was just a list of HWO and AWO. To save a handful of players from overplaying the majority got far fewer games and lots dropped out of the sport. 

Now with the demise of the Prem clubs the rfu have had to pick up the DPP's and academies for at least LI & Wasps so let's see if having the rfu instead of prem clubs running the extra coaching allows players to keep playing with their mates and their mates keep playing.

As an interesting aside, unlike prev 3 year deals where all women's prem 15 teams had to run a "centre of Excellence" (u18 academy) Ealing have not been allowed one and the rfu is running one out of Oxford Harlequins using the staff of Oxford College which was the Wasps Ace college
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote @boatyjames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 17:07
Originally posted by Dad Dad wrote:

In the male (and now female) game the "promising" youngsters are steered away from teenage clubs at 15 and in many cases pointed at specific colleges for their 6th form years.

For them to be spotted at that age a lot of their natural talent has already been brought out by clubs (down to levels 6 or 7 in my area), the academies have a monopoly on those from certain cb's so they can't really be said to be doing massive amounts pre 18.

Last year the national u18 girls cup was decimated as in Aug the a new "performance college league" sprung into existence with girls playing in that on a Wednesday told not to play for clubs on the Sunday. The same year the girls age grades changed from 13,15,18 to 12,14,16,18 reducing u18 numbers by a 1/3. Most of the clubs usually making the regional finals struggled to even get a team out and the results list was just a list of HWO and AWO. To save a handful of players from overplaying the majority got far fewer games and lots dropped out of the sport. 

Now with the demise of the Prem clubs the rfu have had to pick up the DPP's and academies for at least LI & Wasps so let's see if having the rfu instead of prem clubs running the extra coaching allows players to keep playing with their mates and their mates keep playing.

As an interesting aside, unlike prev 3 year deals where all women's prem 15 teams had to run a "centre of Excellence" (u18 academy) Ealing have not been allowed one and the rfu is running one out of Oxford Harlequins using the staff of Oxford College which was the Wasps Ace college


100%. Acadamies have destroyed boys youth rugby and are now doing the same for girls. All started by N Melville and similar private school types at the RFU prioritising schools and academies over clubs. Now the counties are busily endorsing this approach by hiving out their U16’s and Colts teams to the local academy coaches. So Surrey and Sussex colts are now run by Quins!! Absolutely balmy and prevents clubs developing a sensible player pathway based on U16’s, Colts and county if you are good enough. Shameful and all paid for by our RFU.

Edited by @boatyjames - 15 Jun 2023 at 17:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 17:29
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:


Yet another strawman argument. At absolutely no stage whatsoever have I said I wish to deny players the opportunity to play at the top level. I said I would ring-fence the Premiership clubs to keep (those that run them) away from the rest of the game. There would be absolutely nothing to stop any players joining teams in a ring-fenced league as they do now in an almost ring-fenced league anyway.

Your desperation for an argument really is incredibly childish and can be witnessed on the very many boards on which you post and by the way your views often change from board to board depending on who you want to argue with at the time.

I have no wish to engage in any further discussion with you and will only respond to your posts if you direct future posts at me. I'd be grateful if you would do the same.

 

You deliberately try to miss the point again, if a club wants to join the Premiership and their players want to play in the Premiership, they have to have access, ring fencing would deny that, exactly as it does now. No-where did I talk about players leaving their present club to join another club, again you jump to the wrong conclusion.
You clearly hate the Premiership and you clearly want nothing to do with it, we get that, but what you propose is not what everyone wants and you seem unable to see that, promotion and relegation makes for competition, remove that and as the boss of Jersey was quoted as saying "what's the point of winning the Championship".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 19:59
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:


Yet another strawman argument. At absolutely no stage whatsoever have I said I wish to deny players the opportunity to play at the top level. I said I would ring-fence the Premiership clubs to keep (those that run them) away from the rest of the game. There would be absolutely nothing to stop any players joining teams in a ring-fenced league as they do now in an almost ring-fenced league anyway.

Your desperation for an argument really is incredibly childish and can be witnessed on the very many boards on which you post and by the way your views often change from board to board depending on who you want to argue with at the time.

I have no wish to engage in any further discussion with you and will only respond to your posts if you direct future posts at me. I'd be grateful if you would do the same.

 

You deliberately try to miss the point again, if a club wants to join the Premiership and their players want to play in the Premiership, they have to have access, ring fencing would deny that, exactly as it does now. No-where did I talk about players leaving their present club to join another club, again you jump to the wrong conclusion.
You clearly hate the Premiership and you clearly want nothing to do with it, we get that, but what you propose is not what everyone wants and you seem unable to see that, promotion and relegation makes for competition, remove that and as the boss of Jersey was quoted as saying "what's the point of winning the Championship".

I stand by everything I said in my earlier message and you adding to your childishness by now claiming to know what I do and don't think and suggesting you speak on behalf of others ("we get it") only reinforces my opinion.

I say again - I have no wish to engage in any further discussion with you and will only respond to your posts if you direct future posts at me. I'd be grateful if you would do the same.


Edited by WEvans - 15 Jun 2023 at 20:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 20:46
I have to say I have had a contretemps with WEvans in the past but I do agree with him I’m not quite sure what point you are trying to make at times tigerburnie. But hey let’s all be civil 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 21:08
Very clear really I don't hate the Premiership and vehemently support promotion and relegation in and out of all the leagues.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2023 at 21:50
Originally posted by Dad Dad wrote:

In the male (and now female) game the "promising" youngsters are steered away from teenage clubs at 15 and in many cases pointed at specific colleges for their 6th form years.

For them to be spotted at that age a lot of their natural talent has already been brought out by clubs (down to levels 6 or 7 in my area), the academies have a monopoly on those from certain cb's so they can't really be said to be doing massive amounts pre 18.

Last year the national u18 girls cup was decimated as in Aug the a new "performance college league" sprung into existence with girls playing in that on a Wednesday told not to play for clubs on the Sunday. The same year the girls age grades changed from 13,15,18 to 12,14,16,18 reducing u18 numbers by a 1/3. Most of the clubs usually making the regional finals struggled to even get a team out and the results list was just a list of HWO and AWO. To save a handful of players from overplaying the majority got far fewer games and lots dropped out of the sport. 

Now with the demise of the Prem clubs the rfu have had to pick up the DPP's and academies for at least LI & Wasps so let's see if having the rfu instead of prem clubs running the extra coaching allows players to keep playing with their mates and their mates keep playing.

As an interesting aside, unlike prev 3 year deals where all women's prem 15 teams had to run a "centre of Excellence" (u18 academy) Ealing have not been allowed one and the rfu is running one out of Oxford Harlequins using the staff of Oxford College which was the Wasps Ace college

That is an interesting view but one that not all will necessarily share. The pre-18 work by Academies is often dine by local coaches known to the players who work with the schools and colleges. Yes, there is some movement to 6th Form Colleges, sometimes AASE Colleges but that is often where rugby provision at U18 level is limited. I have yet to be convinced that Clubs can di better than Schools at Under 18 level. There may be one or two that stand out but my experience is that the quality of coaching and level of performance is higher in Schools than in Clubs. 

Implementing a player pathway at Club level is more ch about transitioning the player who doesn’t join an Academy and doesn’t go to University. They are the ones we need to keep in the game and they will often include the late developer. Im thinking here of Charlie Gossington who played as a Junior at Chipstead, joined Esher at age 18 in our Development squad and went in n to play over 100 matches at Level 2and 3 as well as being captain.

Do not get me on to the loss of players who don’t continue playing at Uni!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote @boatyjames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 09:53
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Originally posted by Dad Dad wrote:

In the male (and now female) game the "promising" youngsters are steered away from teenage clubs at 15 and in many cases pointed at specific colleges for their 6th form years.

For them to be spotted at that age a lot of their natural talent has already been brought out by clubs (down to levels 6 or 7 in my area), the academies have a monopoly on those from certain cb's so they can't really be said to be doing massive amounts pre 18.

Last year the national u18 girls cup was decimated as in Aug the a new "performance college league" sprung into existence with girls playing in that on a Wednesday told not to play for clubs on the Sunday. The same year the girls age grades changed from 13,15,18 to 12,14,16,18 reducing u18 numbers by a 1/3. Most of the clubs usually making the regional finals struggled to even get a team out and the results list was just a list of HWO and AWO. To save a handful of players from overplaying the majority got far fewer games and lots dropped out of the sport. 

Now with the demise of the Prem clubs the rfu have had to pick up the DPP's and academies for at least LI & Wasps so let's see if having the rfu instead of prem clubs running the extra coaching allows players to keep playing with their mates and their mates keep playing.

As an interesting aside, unlike prev 3 year deals where all women's prem 15 teams had to run a "centre of Excellence" (u18 academy) Ealing have not been allowed one and the rfu is running one out of Oxford Harlequins using the staff of Oxford College which was the Wasps Ace college


That is an interesting view but one that not all will necessarily share. The pre-18 work by Academies is often dine by local coaches known to the players who work with the schools and colleges. Yes, there is some movement to 6th Form Colleges, sometimes AASE Colleges but that is often where rugby provision at U18 level is limited. I have yet to be convinced that Clubs can di better than Schools at Under 18 level. There may be one or two that stand out but my experience is that the quality of coaching and level of performance is higher in Schools than in Clubs. 

Implementing a player pathway at Club level is more ch about transitioning the player who doesn’t join an Academy and doesn’t go to University. They are the ones we need to keep in the game and they will often include the late developer. Im thinking here of Charlie Gossington who played as a Junior at Chipstead, joined Esher at age 18 in our Development squad and went in n to play over 100 matches at Level 2and 3 as well as being captain.

Do not get me on to the loss of players who don’t continue playing at Uni!
a very few schools do a better job because they fund it, 95% of schools don’t offer rugby coaching at all! So your argument falls at the first hurdle. The RFU should cut funding to academy clubs and match fund U16/18 coaching at all clubs that show the wherewithal to run a serious coaching programme. Then those 95% of kids who are lost to rugby can have the chance of proper local rugby coaching and our national player pathway will be vastly enhanced and broadened.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 11:54
I'd say it's preferable that children are taught rugby by teachers rather than coaches.
In reality that only happens for the lucky few.

So for the lads in our U13s it's Dave and me when he can't get away from work.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SK 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2023 at 12:32
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Tony Rowe Tony Rowe wrote:

"It's been a financially challenging time for all of us," Rowe said.

"But what I guess it has shown is just how underfunded the game of rugby itself truly is.

"That's something not only clubs have to address moving forward, but it's also for the likes of Premiership Rugby and those who run the game in this country to really look into.

"We can't afford to stand still in any shape or form. For the game to grow in the manner we all want, we have to be looking at developing every aspect of it, both on and off the field," he told the club website.


If Premiership clubs are underfunded - on the back of £220m RFU followed by £200m of CVC (and I understand Exeter got more than the other clubs) monies, then what does he think about the 2000 other clubs who got not a bobbin from the RFU but still manage to keep going each week, every year?

What value for money have the RFU got for their £220m?  That never seems to mentioned in these type of arguments?  The clubs seek more without proving they are worth more to the game. 

The sheer reality is that the men's game hasn't grown and its receding in terms of player participation - at all ages/levels,  support and community involvement. Not to mention a decline mainstream media interest. Only the growth of women's rugby is masking these fault lines and I am not confident that there is a structure in place that is sustainable in the future. 


The RFU got an absolutely terrific value from it last time.

Firstly it was not £220m, that figure was theoretical and linked to revenues.  When Covid struck the RFU used that clause in a way it was never intended to beggar the clubs by slashing their payments.  This is why every Premiership club needed a covid loan and the RFU did not, they just pushed their responsibility away.

The RFU receive:
An academy system which is producing heaps of players, many of which the RFU mismanages which sees them play internationally elsewhere.
Roughly 6 weeks of extra training camps on top of regulation 9 (1 week pre season, 1 week pre AIs, 3 weeks within 6N window, 1 weeks around summer window.
Ability to plan training & fitness load of players in EPS
Extra weeks rest in 3 different blocks (pre-AI, mid-season & post 6N) for EPS (on top of training)
Ability to get clubs to select players in a certain position, or clubs lose EPS money without losing requirements.
Ability to access club medical & fitness data on player's in the EPS.
Ability to hold additional camps early in the week (where players are then available for clubs on the weekend).

That's just off the top of my head.  It's not a gift in any way, and selling our soul to the RFU is an absolutely core reason why the game has stalled in recent years.  Just look at the constant complaints about players missing league matches de-valuing the league.  THAT is what the deal pays for.

Both the Premiership & to a lesser extent the RFU are actually seeing consistent income growth well above nominal inflation, with the Premiership clubs offering less and less games the ones we offer and becoming more and more efficient at producing cash.  The non-sense fact free doom mongering pedalled by the Rugby Paper is massively damaging.  Why wouldn't people on this board or in the clubhouse believe it?  No one is pushing back with the actual facts which support the counter narrative.

The PGA should be considered separately from the P share model which preceded it and which causes a lot of the other issues people hold with the Premiership which I agree with. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 08:22
SK 88,

the facts are available at Companies House. The filed accounts I have reviewed for Premiership clubs show a bleak picture of clubs only being propped up by their owners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 08:33
Are they any better/different for Championship clubs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 09:20
I believe some of the semi-pro clubs towards the bottom of the Championship run within budget.
But without TV money, rugby can only ever be semi-professional.

With TV money, it can pay a journeyman wage.
What it cannot do is pay six, figure salaries to journeymen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 09:44
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

SK 88,

the facts are available at Companies House. The filed accounts I have reviewed for Premiership clubs show a bleak picture of clubs only being propped up by their owners.

This is the case in most pro sports, isn't it?
Certainly the F1 team I worked for wouldn't exist at the level it is without the owners money.
Chelsea FC would have gone bust last year without a new owner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 10:48
In F1, some are owned by brands, who roll it into the marketing budget. The four car brands Ferrari, Mercedes, Alpine and Aston Martin, plus Red Bull and Alpha Tauri.

Though Aston Martin, it may be a case of a rich owner supporting both the brand and the F1 team.
Haas made money from machine tools, but I don't to think he uses the racing to sell more.

Williams, McLaren and Sauberhave existed as independents for many years, often generating enough money from sponsorship to provide an income for the owner - though none are now owned by the founders. Williams and Sauber are owned by VC companies.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 12:51
Originally posted by Paul10 Paul10 wrote:

Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

SK 88,

the facts are available at Companies House. The filed accounts I have reviewed for Premiership clubs show a bleak picture of clubs only being propped up by their owners.

This is the case in most pro sports, isn't it?
Certainly the F1 team I worked for wouldn't exist at the level it is without the owners money.
Chelsea FC would have gone bust last year without a new owner.

One of the main differences of course is that there are always people willing to buy Premier League football clubs whereas practically nobody would consider buying a Premiership rugby club.

Whether as a supporter you would want some of these football buyers is of course an entirely different matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2023 at 13:09
This thing with Wrexham being bought by movie stars has started something as well, my son in law was told St Johnston FC think a Yank with Scottish ancestors is going to buy them, sad really.
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