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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 11:42
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

To get back to the topic (rather than a totally different sport) - it appears that Irish have been given a tight deadline to complete the take over.

It seems even at Premiership level there are one set of rules for some and a totally different set for others


Charitably (I know...) I think it sort of makes sense. When Wasps and Worcester hit the skids after the season had started (never mind how long they had been skidding before that) and it hasn't happened for a while, the sport has got a - narrow - interest in accepting the assurances that it will all sort itself out, and giving longer for that to happen, because the ramifications of sides disappearing during the season are so serious for the staff/players of those clubs, and for the finances of everyone else. 

When a side hits the skids in the off-season, however, it does probably make more sense to force a quick conclusion because that gives players time to get around the other clubs while plans are being finalised, and before it damages a league that has already started.

From a sport administrators pov, you want potential collapses over and done with quicker in the closed season, and through gritted teeth have more interest in trying to spin them out during the season.

The lesson there is if you're a benevolent but failing team owner, try and make sure the wheels come off during the season...





My point was that Wasps seem to be given every chance to be in the Championship this season - despite having no team, ground and no evidence that they have paid all rugby debts - whilst Worcester were treated entirely differently as it appears are Irish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 11:52
At the risk of moving off topic, I was considering enrolling the London Irish buyers and RFU management in this course 
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 12:38
I believe Wasps have officially paid all rugby creditors - as the bondholders do not fall into the RFU definition. And there was a claim they had agreed to the RFU's terms - which Atlas were not prepared to accept for Worcester.

Atlas's consortium of American money seems to have gone AWOL, as has London Irish's I thought it was meant to complete before the March payroll but didn't, and then again before the April run, and there is only so long the cheque can be in the post.

I am not sure how much due diligence you need to do, the club has no assets,, save for a place in the Premiership and the associated TV income, which requires a combined rent and payroll larger than the income.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 14:57
This saga has has the characteristics of a slow motion car crash. In my opinion London Irish are a brilliant rugby club with quality players and a great supporter base. Wuss and Wasps fall into the same category and it does English rugby huge harm to allow this to develop further or for these clubs to be written off or dispatched to the bottom of the rugby league pyramid.  The RFU's past treatment of London Welsh and the like didn't solve the core structural financial problem in English rugby. The RFU should take their head out of the sand, forget past precedent and do whatever is required to get all three of these clubs in shape to participate in the premiership or championship next season. The RFU make and bend the rules when it suits them so make it happen lads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 15:16
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

This saga has has the characteristics of a slow motion car crash. In my opinion London Irish are a brilliant rugby club with quality players and a great supporter base. Wuss and Wasps fall into the same category and it does English rugby huge harm to allow this to develop further or for these clubs to be written off or dispatched to the bottom of the rugby league pyramid.  The RFU's past treatment of London Welsh and the like didn't solve the core structural financial problem in English rugby. The RFU should take their head out of the sand, forget past precedent and do whatever is required to get all three of these clubs in shape to participate in the premiership or championship next season. The RFU make and bend the rules when it suits them so make it happen lads.

I seriously wonder if there's anything that they can do though. The core structural financial problem is so enormous that there's basically three realistic options (and the fact that most people aren't going to like any of them doesn't mean that they're not still the three options):

- One, abolish all financial restraint and accept a Scottish Premiership scenario with a couple of clubs routinely streets ahead of everyone else, a couple going to the wall trying to keep up, and the last ones standing eventually joining the URC

- Two, punitive financial restraint which empties all the best players to the French leagues (the Super League/RFL approach, though replace French with Australian) - essentially go a long way to ensuring a level of mediocrity which won't collapse.

- Three, revisit the Cotton plan, and actually intentionally go for RFU controlled divisional rugby playing in the URC (which is basically ending up in the same place as option 1, but without the wild west aspect of getting there)

Anything else involves wishful thinking and liberal application of a magic wand. It's been the issue since 1995 - the set up we've got in the top tier is not the set up we can afford, and it never has been right since the first lunatics with big ideas got their cheque books out and decided to blow up English rugby union for their own ego and gratification in 1995. To borrow from another sport, 27 years of hurt. 

But of course all options that don't 'save these great clubs and get them playing' will be howled down because, as the kids say, reasons. 

Maybe the future of English professional rugby can't afford any of the current premiership clubs (or indeed any current English rugby club) never mind just reinstating those three. That should certainly be at least on the table. 

Time for a bit of iconoclastic thinking might be approaching at a rate of knots - never mind the community game finishing at the top of National 1, maybe it's time the community game finished at the top of the Premiership, and the current cartel teams became level 2 below a ringfenced regional pro tier....?


Edited by billesleyexile - 17 May 2023 at 15:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 15:21
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

..............it does English rugby huge harm to allow this to develop further or for these clubs to be written off or dispatched to the bottom of the rugby league pyramid.

I'm not sure that's an adequate reason for kicking National League and lower  teams in the teeth just because they have been prudent in their financial management.

As has been said earlier, the French model of proof of financial stability before the season starts and monthly management accounts submission with appropriate points deduction for late delivery has to be the way forward.

You cannot keep teams afloat just because they're fashionable, what message does that send to clubs lower down the leagues? Who decides who is deserving of support? Certainly not new kids on the block like Worcester, Exeter, Sale and Newcastle.

The whole thing is a ducking mess and the current RFU management are not the ones to sort it out.

(I see that the FFR are setting up a third professional league - how do they do it?)
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 15:29
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:


(I see that the FFR are setting up a third professional league - how do they do it?)

Enormous (geographically) country where football doesn't hold sway everywhere - essentially more of France looks like Gloucester, so there is scope for many more Gloucesters. 

France has below 50 fully professional football teams in a country of 67.75 million

England has 55.98 million people, supporting 92 fully professional premiership and football league clubs.. plus 21 out of 24 Conference clubs (level 5) are fully professional, and there are definitely fully professional clubs at level 6, because Kidderminster, who have just been promoted back to level 5, are fully pro. So well over double the number of professional French football clubs.

It boils down to England and France being very different countries with different circumstances (I know that sounds trite, but it is what it is) 

Away from a few glamour football clubs, French football and French rugby have different spheres of influence in the country, and on a lot of levels are fully, never mind broadly, comparable. In England just on attendances the Premiership (RU) is about par with a reasonable League 1 club that isn't setting the world on fire. Because football is king here it's easy to assume it looks like that everywhere. In enough of France, it doesn't. I don't think we can now (or probably ever again) compete with the French domestic rugby set-up - and I'm only in my early 40s. I'm more and more convinced that the future for English professional rugby, if we want to keep winning things, is smaller, centrally controlled, and *much* more protectionist.


Edited by billesleyexile - 17 May 2023 at 15:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 15:34
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:


(I see that the FFR are setting up a third professional league - how do they do it?)

Enormous (geographically) country where football doesn't hold sway  football clubs.

It boils down to England and France being very different countries with different circumstances (I know that sounds trite, but it is what it is) 

With the French success in Football and Rugby we must be a bunch of lardy ar5es Ouch

Meanwhile the American Teachers' Pension fund a.k.a. CVC just sit and wait to pounce


Edited by FHLH - 17 May 2023 at 15:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 15:39
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:


Meanwhile the American Teachers' Pension fund a.k.a. CVC just sit and wait to pounce

Which is why the time is fast approaching when some bright minds just might need to work out how the RFU can pull the plug on the Premiership first...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 15:44
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:


Meanwhile the American Teachers' Pension fund a.k.a. CVC just sit and wait to pounce

Which is why the time is fast approaching when some bright minds just might need to work out how the RFU can pull the plug on the Premiership first...

Or somebody pull the plug on the RFU .. more to the point
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 16:03
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:


Meanwhile the American Teachers' Pension fund a.k.a. CVC just sit and wait to pounce

Which is why the time is fast approaching when some bright minds just might need to work out how the RFU can pull the plug on the Premiership first...

Probably why they are so against promotion/relegation in recent times. Have to keep the Yanks happy because its a concept too complicated for them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 16:03
Originally posted by Scrumtime Scrumtime wrote:

Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:


Meanwhile the American Teachers' Pension fund a.k.a. CVC just sit and wait to pounce

Which is why the time is fast approaching when some bright minds just might need to work out how the RFU can pull the plug on the Premiership first...

Or somebody pull the plug on the RFU .. more to the point

Much as it pains me to say it, as the supporter of a club that was royally shafted (though not as badly as some) by the transition to professionalism, the RFU as they are now are a symptom, not the cause of the problems. Well they're the cause in that their abject surrender to putative club owners in 1995 set us on the path we've been on for the past nearly 30 years, but that involved virtually nobody that's still in a position of power now. 

Fran Cotton had the right idea - the clubs should have been stood up to and told they simply weren't part of the pro future. The Irish did it, remember the IRFU putting Garryowen firmly back in their box and telling them the future was the provinces...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 16:13
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

You cannot keep teams afloat just because they're fashionable, what message does that send to clubs lower down the leagues? Who decides who is deserving of support? Certainly not new kids on the block like Worcester, Exeter, Sale and Newcastle.

The whole thing is a ducking mess and the current RFU management are not the ones to sort it out.
  Like it or not the real money in the game comes from TV, sponsorship & advertising and that money will always go to the fashionable clubs which will employ the top players who fill the England shirts. The RFU have the money and make and bend the rules to suit their purpose. It has nowt to do with fairness or meritocracy - they should do whatever is necessary to keep these clubs going next season in the top two leagues and then let promotion and relegation sort things out over time - WITHOUT REQUIRING DAFT CAPITAL INVESTMENT BY PROMOTED CLUBS ON HUGE GROUNDS NO ONE WANTS.
Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 16:35
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

This saga has has the characteristics of a slow motion car crash. In my opinion London Irish are a brilliant rugby club with quality players and a great supporter base. Wuss and Wasps fall into the same category and it does English rugby huge harm to allow this to develop further or for these clubs to be written off or dispatched to the bottom of the rugby league pyramid.  The RFU's past treatment of London Welsh and the like didn't solve the core structural financial problem in English rugby. The RFU should take their head out of the sand, forget past precedent and do whatever is required to get all three of these clubs in shape to participate in the premiership or championship next season. The RFU make and bend the rules when it suits them so make it happen lads.
You cannot save clubs who were run badly just because we like them, if they have no solid base, then like London Welsh or Rugby Lions, you start again at the bottom. You cannot keep rewarding failure, Wasps have been failing for over a decade are not likely to ever get out of that rut they find themselves in. Worcester were a different situation, but due to the administrators accepting an unsuitable bid(why that was legal who knows), they too at present have no means of being able to finance. Wasps have been careering towards oblivion right since the game went pro, big ambitions, but even when they were Champions, they still could not sustain themselves. When the game went pro some clubs had a look and said "no thanks" Orrell spring to mind as one, some like Wasps thought they could do it, but underestimated the task and over estimated their own ability to function as a business.
You look at their current plans to be back at the top and have a ground with over 20k seating in under 5 years, deluded, they couldn't make it work when they actually had a ground, how will they finance all of this? They will put other clubs financial position in jeopardy, just as much as Saracens did by over paying players and forcing up the expectations of players and fans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 16:37
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

You cannot keep teams afloat just because they're fashionable, what message does that send to clubs lower down the leagues? Who decides who is deserving of support? Certainly not new kids on the block like Worcester, Exeter, Sale and Newcastle.

The whole thing is a ducking mess and the current RFU management are not the ones to sort it out.
  Like it or not the real money in the game comes from TV, sponsorship & advertising and that money will always go to the fashionable clubs which will employ the top players who fill the England shirts. The RFU have the money and make and bend the rules to suit their purpose. It has nowt to do with fairness or meritocracy - they should do whatever is necessary to keep these clubs going next season in the top two leagues and then let promotion and relegation sort things out over time - WITHOUT REQUIRING DAFT CAPITAL INVESTMENT BY PROMOTED CLUBS ON HUGE GROUNDS NO ONE WANTS.

Thats the issue the RFU do not have the money, they are near as dame it broke and have sold the only pot of gold to CVC, who at some stage will ramp up the repayments, because they are not in it for the good of the game, no matter what the window dressing is now ...that in turn will then break the RFU and the pro game... Leaving Sweeney to munch on a Pizza from his mates at Papa Johns, providing they have not pulled the rip cord on their gig.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 17:24
Originally posted by Scrumtime Scrumtime wrote:


Thats the issue the RFU do not have the money, they are near as dame it broke and have sold the only pot of gold to CVC, who at some stage will ramp up the repayments, because they are not in it for the good of the game, no matter what the window dressing is now ...that in turn will then break the RFU and the pro game... Leaving Sweeney to munch on a Pizza from his mates at Papa Johns, providing they have not pulled the rip cord on their gig.
If you are right and the RFU don't have the money to sort it out then we should just allow the best players to move to France to earn what they can elsewhere. The TV, sponsorship and advertising money will still go to the fashionable clubs  who will probably focus on European competitions and England (men & women). 
Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 17:43
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

Originally posted by Scrumtime Scrumtime wrote:


Thats the issue the RFU do not have the money, they are near as dame it broke and have sold the only pot of gold to CVC, who at some stage will ramp up the repayments, because they are not in it for the good of the game, no matter what the window dressing is now ...that in turn will then break the RFU and the pro game... Leaving Sweeney to munch on a Pizza from his mates at Papa Johns, providing they have not pulled the rip cord on their gig.
If you are right and the RFU don't have the money to sort it out then we should just allow the best players to move to France to earn what they can elsewhere. The TV, sponsorship and advertising money will still go to the fashionable clubs  who will probably focus on European competitions and England (men & women). 
Pretty sure Premiership clubs will focus on winning the league and playoffs, Europe would be nice but unlikely without busting the bank buying players. England, yes they will help players develop and take what ever compensation they get, but I bet it's not a focus. More than one DoR of Premiership teams have said that England were an obstacle in their way to make the club a success.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2023 at 23:05
Can I just also point out that even if money is found, that I don't think the firm involved should ever pass the 'fit and proper' test. Two of the people involved seem to be Ray Lewis, an Amerucan footballer notorious for a murder charge and guilty of obstruction of justice in the subsequent investigation and Allen Iverson, a basketball star infamous for financial mismanagement.

Edited by gerg_861 - 17 May 2023 at 23:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2023 at 07:39
Perfect CV's....Should fit right in

Edited by No 7 - 18 May 2023 at 07:40
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2023 at 08:22
Originally posted by gerg_861 gerg_861 wrote:

Can I just also point out that even if money is found, that I don't think the firm involved should ever pass the 'fit and proper' test. Two of the people involved seem to be Ray Lewis, an Amerucan footballer notorious for a murder charge and guilty of obstruction of justice in the subsequent investigation and Allen Iverson, a basketball star infamous for financial mismanagement.

The RFU jumped into bed with Secure Trading to sponsor the 7s. Did not do "fit and proper" tests, just looked at the £ sign, took money and a few lunches. Got paid on year 1, missing year 2 to 5 , company goes to the wall owing the RFU 4 years money and England 7s go to the wall with it, hence why its now GB 7's . but that all got brushed under the carpet! Why, because they had to save face and could not let that out the bag and god forbid somebody at the RFU be found responsible for it and have to carry the can. They were even wearing ST on the front of the shirts 9 months post the company going belly up, Joke!

Bit like Wasps coming back in the Champ, what suits them is fine!

The RFU cannot afford another Prem club to go, they will prop this up any way they can.

Otherwise they will have a 10 team league with 9 home league games over a 32 week season. Because they won't let anybody from the Champ into the Prem Club. Take Jersey, good enough for England to train at, good enough for the RFU to throw money at to make sure its up to standard for England to spend weeks at training, but not good enough for the Prem, why because they dare not have an outsider in the Prem Club! 

Then you tell me what club in the world can keep afloat with 9 home league games as income, throw in a max of 4 for Europe and then a cup that nobody will pay full price to watch. The whole lot comes down like a pack of cards if Irish go I'd say!


Edited by Scrumtime - 18 May 2023 at 08:35
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