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Halliford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 22:29
We at Esher have had very close links with London Irish for years. When I was 1st XV coach we played a regular midweek game against them, players “retired” from them to us and more recently most of their Senior Academy have enjoyed being dual registered with us. I feel particularly for Pat O’Grady, the Academy Manager who has done a brilliant job and now faces an uncertain future.

We need to find a better way of funding Clubs than relying on wealthy individuals. If that means cutting back and reducing salaries to bring them in line with income then so be it. We need some reality.


Edited by Halliford - 06 Jun 2023 at 23:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 22:37
A hundred and five players, no wonder you were winning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 22:41
London Irish’s demise should terrify those in rugby’s corridors of power

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The reasons behind Irish’s downfall are different to that of Worcester and Wasps but no less chilling for the sport

If one is misfortune and two is carelessness how on earth to describe the loss of a third Premiership club in the space of eight months? London Irish have finally followed Worcester and Wasps in being kicked out of the league, the financial mess that engulfs club rugby growing deeper. Again it is a tale of broken promises, of misplaced hope that salvation was round the corner.

The figures alone are haunting. Upwards of £30m of debt, approximately 70 players unemployed. But the numbers do not speak of the devastation that accompanies the demise of a professional club. Nor the depressing inevitability of something that has been on the cards for months, writ large in recent weeks, or the powerlessness to stop it.

The reasons behind Irish’s demise are different to that of Worcester and Wasps but no less chilling. Worcester’s problem was their co-owners; Wasps’ what can be described, with hindsight, as a ludicrous bond scheme. What will terrify those in the corridors of power in regards to Irish’s downfall is that it was due to a benefactor who had supported the club for the last decade but either could not or would not continue to do so.

It is terrifying because here is an illustration of just how precarious it can be to live at the mercy of a wealthy owner initially willing to absorb losses. Take Bath as an example. Bruce Craig is said to have pumped a few more million into the club and Finn Russell’s arrival will be greeted with great fanfare. But what of Bath if Craig pulls the plug? The same goes for Bristol if Steve Lansdown decides it is time to get out. Likewise Tony Rowe at Exeter. Newcastle, on the other hand, have been criticised for slashing their budget and with it their ambition. At times the criticism is justified – their capitulation at home to Northampton in the penultimate round of the season was pathetic – but at least they are trying to live within their means.

If the first draft of the next Professional Game Agreement does not spell out instructions as to how clubs must address their debt – exacerbated by Covid recovery loans – and that their central funding is conditional on it, then it should be ripped up and thrown in the bin. That the government has stepped in by appointing two independent advisers to assist with the restructuring of the domestic game only reiterates the gravity of the problem.

At Irish, just as at Worcester and at Wasps, it is the human cost that is most sobering. The employees who are now out of work, who have given years, decades, to the club. In terms of the playing squad, the cream will be swiftly picked off – Tom Pearson has an array of suitors, so too Henry Arundell and the highly rated Chandler Cunningham-South. But what of the lesser-heralded players? Not all will find employment in what is already a crowded market.

That the players and staff agreed to an extension to the Rugby Football Union’s deadline, primarily to ensure that they at least received some of May’s wages, is a damning indictment of the landscape. Irish’s owner, Mick Crossan, has his supporters after picking up the club a decade ago, for absorbing losses year on year, for relocating them to the capital and for continuing an upward trajectory. Much of that goodwill has been lost in recent weeks. As well as being given the ultimatum of only being paid 50% of May’s wages in order to keep the club afloat, staff and players were also paid April’s wages late.

To put the burden on the players is to tug at the heartstrings. At the start of May, Irish’s director of rugby, Declan Kidney, reminded us it was a club with a 124-year history, with amateur roots in Sunbury in Surrey, also a club with a community feel. It is that sort of emotion that clouds judgment when it comes to the proposed takeover by a US consortium. Take it away and all that’s left is an investment that makes little business sense. Granted the Hazelwood training base is an impressive asset, but Irish do not own their stadium and have tens of millions of pounds of debt.

Simon Massie-Taylor, chief executive of Premiership Rugby, has inherited a lot of problems of his predecessors’ making and has approached them with commendable intent, but it was naive in the extreme to remark of Irish’s prospective buyers that “they’re from across the pond and they’ve got interest in other sports so it is a positive news story”. He is not the first to be seduced by Uncle Sam but will now have to set about accelerating plans for a 10-team Premiership.

The desperate shame is that Irish have made great strides on the pitch this season. Kidney deserves great credit for that; he is an experienced hand with an unflappable nature who will have protected his squad from the turmoil as best he could. There is a wealth of talent in the squad, too, and if the aim was to spend big on players such as Waisake Naholo, Adam Coleman, Sean O’Brien and Curtis Rona as the cohort of English talent that includes Pearson and Arundell emerged then it nearly worked. The fanbase in Brentford has also grown – more than 11,500 attended their final match of the season – but ultimately it is another moonshot to crash and burn.

For its part the RFU has not known whether to stick or twist as the echoes with Worcester and Wasps have grown louder in recent weeks. On one hand there has been a desperation to avoid losing a third club from the Premiership in the space of eight months; on the other the union has to be firm after its chief executive, Bill Sweeney, was skewered by a parliamentary inquiry in November.

Irish’s suspension will only heap the pressure on Sweeney, whose public appearances have dried up in recent months. He is under pressure over his planned governance reforms and the botched handling of the tackle height law change. There is also understood to be an anticipated £40m shortfall in the RFU’s income, alongside a further projected £10m loss due to inflationary costs, such as those related to overheads.

The next Professional Game Agreement – which comes into force next year – may be Sweeney’s intended parting legacy but, in truth, he may not even get that far. If he does, then addressing the Championship – whose funding was slashed on his watch – must be among his priorities. It is absurd to think the Championship can come to the rescue for so many players out of work when it is not funded properly. If there is a glimmer of hope it is that cut-price year-long deals in the second tier or France, before the Premiership salary cap goes back up to £6.4m, may be the least bad option for many players.

But that several clubs believe raising the salary cap again is madness, given the current climate, only goes to highlight the depth of the quagmire English rugby is in. As one well-placed source lamented: “What is the vision, can the RFU give us a concrete vision for what English rugby looks like?”

Until it does, the worry is that London Irish will not be the third and last to fall. For now there are 10 green bottles sitting on the wall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 23:21
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

A hundred and five players, no wonder you were winning.
Couldn't see my mistake through the tears!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Gold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 23:39
Spot on. 
#AClubForLife💛❤️🖤
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 00:12
Originally posted by Steve@Mose Steve@Mose wrote:

........ As one well-placed source lamented: “What is the vision, can the RFU give us a concrete vision for what English rugby looks like?”

Cannot help but think it's time to cut The Premiership adrift. Financial support and all. 
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 08:33
London Irish’s new dawn has turned into a funeral procession

Looks like bad news for the Wild Geese as well.


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...There is also the matter of the club’s training headquarters in Sunbury-on-Thames that hosts the club’s amateur section. London Irish amateurs have a 15-year lease to play at the club’s Hazelwood complex but the land is owned by London Irish Holdings, which was one of the companies named in the winding up petition served to the club’s officials last week by HRMC.



Edited by Steve@Mose - 07 Jun 2023 at 09:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 08:45
If, and when, LIH goes into administration, the administrator takes over the lease.
They are charged to get maximum value, so would probably use any break clause to remove the sitting tenant.

But, if it is bought by the Jacksonville Jaguars as a training base, they may well decide they can co-exist with an amateur rugby club, after all they do not train after mid-January and will be on the road half of the Saturdays, and probably do not train the day before a home match orin the evenings anyway.

But then again, they might not.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 10:29
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

We at Esher have had very close links with London Irish for years. When I was 1st XV coach we played a regular midweek game against them, players “retired” from them to us and more recently most of their Senior Academy have enjoyed being dual registered with us. I feel particularly for Pat O’Grady, the Academy Manager who has done a brilliant job and now faces an uncertain future.

We need to find a better way of funding Clubs than relying on wealthy individuals. If that means cutting back and reducing salaries to bring them in line with income then so be it. We need some reality.

The reality is that attendance income will not fund players salaries.  10 home games at Bath will just about pay Fin Russell’s wages
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 10:38
Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

We at Esher have had very close links with London Irish for years. When I was 1st XV coach we played a regular midweek game against them, players “retired” from them to us and more recently most of their Senior Academy have enjoyed being dual registered with us. I feel particularly for Pat O’Grady, the Academy Manager who has done a brilliant job and now faces an uncertain future.

We need to find a better way of funding Clubs than relying on wealthy individuals. If that means cutting back and reducing salaries to bring them in line with income then so be it. We need some reality.

The reality is that attendance income will not fund players salaries.  10 home games at Bath will just about pay Fin Russell’s wages

Indeed. Someday those running the game might finally realise the solution to the problem is (probably was by now) not how to fund the existing running costs of the clubs but how to dramatically reduce these to a level at which there is a possibility they can be funded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 10:46
Originally posted by WE Evans WE Evans wrote:

Someday those running the game might finally realise the solution to the problem is (probably was by now) not how to fund the existing running costs of the clubs but how to dramatically reduce these to a level at which there is a possibility they can be funded.

Perhaps this latest twist will see players and their agents seek lower salaries - if they go to Europe, fine, there are only a finite number of clubs in elite rugby worldwide


Edited by FHLH - 07 Jun 2023 at 10:48
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 10:47
Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

We at Esher have had very close links with London Irish for years. When I was 1st XV coach we played a regular midweek game against them, players “retired” from them to us and more recently most of their Senior Academy have enjoyed being dual registered with us. I feel particularly for Pat O’Grady, the Academy Manager who has done a brilliant job and now faces an uncertain future.

We need to find a better way of funding Clubs than relying on wealthy individuals. If that means cutting back and reducing salaries to bring them in line with income then so be it. We need some reality.

The reality is that attendance income will not fund players salaries.  10 home games at Bath will just about pay Fin Russell’s wages
If you are right its a big part of the problem. If English clubs can't afford the top players they should let them ply their trade abroad and only pay their squads what they can finance internally. The policy of buying success using unsustainable funds from benefactors is surely the root cause. Making clubs invest huge capital sums in stadiums they don't want and cant fill is the other major cause. Irish (and London Welsh) could have been a brilliant Championship club with great support without the hugely expensive star players they took on to compete in the premiership.
Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 10:54
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

..........if English clubs can't afford the top players they should let them ply their trade abroad and only pay their squads what they can finance internally.

Spot on. ClapClap

Unfortunately common sense doesn't have a chair at rugby's top table that was taken by CVC 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 10:57
CVC have plenty of common sense, they got 20% of the TV and league sponsorship income for a very reasonable price. Nothing wrong with their business acumen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 11:08
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Common sense & business acumen.

Shame they didn't offer those as part payment rather than cash. 
 
Buy Now, Pain Later decision from RFU.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 11:25
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

Irish (and London Welsh) could have been a brilliant Championship club with great support without the hugely expensive star players they took on to compete in the premiership.

Thing is, that's questionable though isn't it? How many Championship clubs run at a profit? Or any level, this isn't a dig at Championship clubs specifically? 
 
FWIW LW have great supporters, but I'd question whether they had enough of them to operate at Championship level without taking on debt. It's the same problem as the level one clubs, but on a smaller scale. 

If we moved to a system of 'spend only what you can actually afford' tomorrow I would expect *many* more clubs to drop a division, or four, or five, than would rise.

We could simply say 'these 6 new franchises are the pro teams, everyone else is banned from paying players'

Or, and this is long past time it happened anyway - it should have come in as soon as there was a free gangway for clubs rather than players - have a mandatory ceiling for number of players on the books at any one club, tie down the players to their clubs on long-term contracts, stand in their way if a higher placed club comes in for them, and move to a proper transfer system with fees payable to selling clubs if a player is under contract. 

What we've got at the moment is a dogs dinner of trying to do the 'gentlemanly, not the rugby way to stand in a player's way thing', while also having free movement of clubs up and down divisions. Which is ludicrous. One or the other works, but not both.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 14:25
Open letter from Mick Crossan. He echoes many points that contributors to this forum make regularly.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 15:43
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

If, and when, LIH goes into administration, the administrator takes over the lease.
They are charged to get maximum value, so would probably use any break clause to remove the sitting tenant.

But, if it is bought by the Jacksonville Jaguars as a training base, they may well decide they can co-exist with an amateur rugby club, after all they do not train after mid-January and will be on the road half of the Saturdays, and probably do not train the day before a home match orin the evenings anyway.

But then again, they might not.


Personally, I don't trust that Jaguars owner. He already tried to eject the England football team from  matches in autumn at Wembley when he tried to buy it and I don't think he'd have let the FA use it as freely as was implied. I have my reasons for suspecting ulterior motives that are going to have a negative impact on rugby. 

I just hope whoever gets it does maintain London Irish Amateur's position there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 15:49
Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Open letter from Mick Crossan. He echoes many points that contributors to this forum make regularly.

Rugby urgently needs a solution to this mess which provides a way back into the game for the brilliant people (staff and supporters) involved in Irish, Wuss & Wasps. 
Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 17:02
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Open letter from Mick Crossan. He echoes many points that contributors to this forum make regularly.

Rugby urgently needs a solution to this mess which provides a way back into the game for the brilliant people (staff and supporters) involved in Irish, Wuss & Wasps. 

but there is a way back - LS and Richmond have trodden it, LW are treading it. no club is too big to be booted to the bottom. Don't want to win stupid prizes? Don't play silly games.

Otherwise where does it stop? Where was Orrell's help, or Moseley's? Waterloo? Manchester? Rugby Lions? London Welsh? London Scottish? West Hartlepool? Richmond? Coventry? Mounts Bay? Newbury?

keep the faith
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